another point of view - Pace and Cap

10-15-2005, 02:40 AM

Was posted elsewhere, by someone else, but it is the view of many when it comes to manuals for programs: "To the handicapper who was surprised that SPEC came with no manual - it's my feeling that the manuals that came with Sartin programs past were, in effect, useless. There were examples of run races, yes, but in terms of learning to use the program, there was next to nothing.

The whole point of Doc's programs (I thought) was "Here's the program. Now you figure out how to make it work best for you." Self-reliance rarely comes with a manual."

cprescigno · 10-15-2005, 10:21 AM

I disagree with absolutely no documentation coming with this or any program. Let's not forget that this is a DOS based prorgam and you have to go back about 10 years to DOS rules.
The first and most immediate problem is there is nothing saying where (in which directory) to install this program. Second, where does it want to look for data files. The user is simply given the program and left to his/her own devices to make it work.
In my case not such a big deal. I've been working with computers for over 20 years and I know how to back track a .bat or .pif file to find out what a program actually is looking for and then create that enviroment. The typical user who started at Win 95 or later just isn't gong to be able to do that and it's just going to frustrate that user.
In my case, after I installed the program and took a look at it there was some terminology I was unfamiliar with and some abbreviations that were new to me. I was able to get most of that here from the Audio Workbooks that were posted onlne. I don't think that was Binder's responsibility to provide that here and those definitions could have easily been included with the program.
One example: Need to Lead. My experience may be limited but I had never seen it put into those terms. I was much more familiar with Quirin Speed Ratings to indicate a horse's position. There were other abbreviations and terminology that were also new to me. Those definitions should come with the program or be available somewhere without having to hunt them down.
I realize that this is going to be learning experience and there is no free lunch. The user is going to make a committment to do some work here. When I buy lunch I would at least like a salad thrown in or my espresso afterwards. I promise I'll come back.
Besides being profitable, this is supposed to be enjoyable. I enjoy doing this otherwise I wouldn't do it. I do hope that at some point I get good at it.

Charlie

shoeless · 10-15-2005, 10:29 AM

Charlie, I totally agree with you that's the main reason I never pursued the program.Sorry you came here under these present conditions but there are really some very knowledgeable people here.Hopefully the next time I see Richie I can twist his arm to post here once again.He is the one guy here that is excellent with ALL of the programs.Jeff

cprescigno · 10-15-2005, 10:53 AM

That's the reason I came here. There are a few members here that I can learn a ton from. Yourself, Binder, Tim, RichieP, socantra, and I am sure there are others. I may not agree with everything I am shown or helped with but I am sure I can learn a lot here.
I do appreciate all of the help I have gotten here so far. I don't think I would have taken a look at a Sartin based program had there not been a support system in place somewhere to get help from. Fortunately this site fulfills that requirement and I appreciate it being here.

Charlie

shoeless · 10-15-2005, 11:15 AM

Im glad you feel that way but dont listen to me too much I will just end screwing you up.Im using Synergism a program that was out 20 years ago and is manual entry.I also use the old theories as well such as looking at the racing form,trainer intent and stuff like that .I wouldnt recommend using it with Spec.Im 54 years old and have been playing the nags for over 30 years and some old habits are just too hard to break.Anyway good to see you on board and if you need hepl in anyway I would be happy to assist if possible.Jeff

RichieP · 10-20-2005, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cprescigno

I disagree with absolutely no documentation coming with this or any program. Let's not forget that this is a DOS based prorgam and you have to go back about 10 years to DOS rules.
The first and most immediate problem is there is nothing saying where (in which directory) to install this program. Second, where does it want to look for data files. The user is simply given the program and left to his/her own devices to make it work.
In my case not such a big deal. I've been working with computers for over 20 years and I know how to back track a .bat or .pif file to find out what a program actually is looking for and then create that enviroment. The typical user who started at Win 95 or later just isn't gong to be able to do that and it's just going to frustrate that user.
In my case, after I installed the program and took a look at it there was some terminology I was unfamiliar with and some abbreviations that were new to me. I was able to get most of that here from the Audio Workbooks that were posted onlne. I don't think that was Binder's responsibility to provide that here and those definitions could have easily been included with the program.
One example: Need to Lead. My experience may be limited but I had never seen it put into those terms. I was much more familiar with Quirin Speed Ratings to indicate a horse's position. There were other abbreviations and terminology that were also new to me. Those definitions should come with the program or be available somewhere without having to hunt them down.
I realize that this is going to be learning experience and there is no free lunch. The user is going to make a committment to do some work here. When I buy lunch I would at least like a salad thrown in or my espresso afterwards. I promise I'll come back.
Besides being profitable, this is supposed to be enjoyable. I enjoy doing this otherwise I wouldn't do it. I do hope that at some point I get good at it.

Charlie

Hi Charlie,

Any help I can be just holler please ok?

I was reading the followups yesterday and one thing that caught me was Aline saying that "value bettors" often get discouraged after losing 3 races in a row. This is what happened to me last year when things went south for a while. I kept deviating from guidelines and paid the price at the windows. All along if I just "stayed the course" it would have turned around much quicker for me while letting me keep my sanity Charlie.

I hope you get much enjoyment from your software and from this site. Bill is such a GOOD man.

Richie

socantra · 10-20-2005, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TaWee

Was posted elsewhere, by someone else, but it is the view of many when it comes to manuals for programs: "To the handicapper who was surprised that SPEC came with no manual - it's my feeling that the manuals that came with Sartin programs past were, in effect, useless. There were examples of run races, yes, but in terms of learning to use the program, there was next to nothing.

The whole point of Doc's programs (I thought) was "Here's the program. Now you figure out how to make it work best for you." Self-reliance rarely comes with a manual."

Interesting. Is that how you train your doctors? Just hand them a scalpel and tell them to go figure out how to use it?

Obviously that's a ridiculous idea, but so is the assertion that Doc Sartin didn't provide any useful documentation.

With Validator 2 you got a 12 page set of doc's with thos pesky little details like how to install and set up the program, some basi definitions and concepts and a few races with various points illustrated. There was also an audio tape that ran for over an hour, and a twenty some odd page workbook that came with that, illustrating more races and going over the basics of the program with you. Add to that a Validator demo program that was available with three full cards and a workbook for practice.

In terms of further training, you could not buy Validator unless you were a member of the methodology. which came with either the yellow manual or several audio tapes and other introductory materials and a full year of the Follow Up, which added another 275 or so pages of documentation. Also included was the mail, telephone and in person support if you chose to avail yourself of them.

Self reliance may not come with a manual, but I'd just as soon you train those doctors a little before they start operating on prople.

Dick...

10-20-2005, 12:59 PM

AT The OUTSET, underlined was the fact that the statement was from SOMEONE else. As an observation, I posted it here.

LAST time I looked, the training of phsyicians has VERY LITTLE to do with understanding or learning something as simple as a computer program...How bout NOTHING to do with it.

socantra · 10-20-2005, 01:45 PM

At the outset, I stated:

"Obviously that's a ridiculous idea, but so is the assertion that Doc Sartin didn't provide any useful documentation"

Merely an illustration Tim, not an attack. I'm delighted to hear you believe in training for physicians.(G)

Dick...

Binder · 10-20-2005, 04:41 PM

Thanks for mentioning all the great support material that came with Val 2
Allthe documentaion is availible on http://Bindfold.com

http://bindfold.com/images/Validator_2_Manual.pdf

Also I got your Email
I am sorry VDC is been running so slow and everyone is having the same problems I will fix this

Bill

10-15-2005, 02:40 AM	#1
TaWee Guest Posts: n/a	another point of view Was posted elsewhere, by someone else, but it is the view of many when it comes to manuals for programs: "To the handicapper who was surprised that SPEC came with no manual - it's my feeling that the manuals that came with Sartin programs past were, in effect, useless. There were examples of run races, yes, but in terms of learning to use the program, there was next to nothing. The whole point of Doc's programs (I thought) was "Here's the program. Now you figure out how to make it work best for you." Self-reliance rarely comes with a manual."

10-15-2005, 10:21 AM	#2
cprescigno Spec Rookie Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 258	Documentation I disagree with absolutely no documentation coming with this or any program. Let's not forget that this is a DOS based prorgam and you have to go back about 10 years to DOS rules. The first and most immediate problem is there is nothing saying where (in which directory) to install this program. Second, where does it want to look for data files. The user is simply given the program and left to his/her own devices to make it work. In my case not such a big deal. I've been working with computers for over 20 years and I know how to back track a .bat or .pif file to find out what a program actually is looking for and then create that enviroment. The typical user who started at Win 95 or later just isn't gong to be able to do that and it's just going to frustrate that user. In my case, after I installed the program and took a look at it there was some terminology I was unfamiliar with and some abbreviations that were new to me. I was able to get most of that here from the Audio Workbooks that were posted onlne. I don't think that was Binder's responsibility to provide that here and those definitions could have easily been included with the program. One example: Need to Lead. My experience may be limited but I had never seen it put into those terms. I was much more familiar with Quirin Speed Ratings to indicate a horse's position. There were other abbreviations and terminology that were also new to me. Those definitions should come with the program or be available somewhere without having to hunt them down. I realize that this is going to be learning experience and there is no free lunch. The user is going to make a committment to do some work here. When I buy lunch I would at least like a salad thrown in or my espresso afterwards. I promise I'll come back. Besides being profitable, this is supposed to be enjoyable. I enjoy doing this otherwise I wouldn't do it. I do hope that at some point I get good at it. Charlie

10-20-2005, 12:59 PM	#8
TaWee Guest Posts: n/a	Yet again another CONCLUSION jumper AT The OUTSET, underlined was the fact that the statement was from SOMEONE else. As an observation, I posted it here. LAST time I looked, the training of phsyicians has VERY LITTLE to do with understanding or learning something as simple as a computer program...How bout NOTHING to do with it. Last edited by TaWee; 10-20-2005 at 01:05 PM.

10-20-2005, 01:45 PM	#9
socantra Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Norman, OK Posts: 387	No conclusions jumped At the outset, I stated: "Obviously that's a ridiculous idea, but so is the assertion that Doc Sartin didn't provide any useful documentation" Merely an illustration Tim, not an attack. I'm delighted to hear you believe in training for physicians.(G) Dick...

10-20-2005, 04:41 PM	#10
Binder Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Northern NJ Posts: 674	Thanks Dick Thanks for mentioning all the great support material that came with Val 2 Allthe documentaion is availible on http://Bindfold.com http://bindfold.com/images/Validator_2_Manual.pdf Also I got your Email I am sorry VDC is been running so slow and everyone is having the same problems I will fix this Bill

10-15-2005, 10:29 AM	#3
shoeless Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 4,650	Charlie, I totally agree with you that's the main reason I never pursued the program.Sorry you came here under these present conditions but there are really some very knowledgeable people here.Hopefully the next time I see Richie I can twist his arm to post here once again.He is the one guy here that is excellent with ALL of the programs.Jeff

10-15-2005, 10:53 AM	#4
cprescigno Spec Rookie Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: NYC Posts: 258	That's the reason I came here. There are a few members here that I can learn a ton from. Yourself, Binder, Tim, RichieP, socantra, and I am sure there are others. I may not agree with everything I am shown or helped with but I am sure I can learn a lot here. I do appreciate all of the help I have gotten here so far. I don't think I would have taken a look at a Sartin based program had there not been a support system in place somewhere to get help from. Fortunately this site fulfills that requirement and I appreciate it being here. Charlie

10-15-2005, 11:15 AM	#5
shoeless Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 4,650	Im glad you feel that way but dont listen to me too much I will just end screwing you up.Im using Synergism a program that was out 20 years ago and is manual entry.I also use the old theories as well such as looking at the racing form,trainer intent and stuff like that .I wouldnt recommend using it with Spec.Im 54 years old and have been playing the nags for over 30 years and some old habits are just too hard to break.Anyway good to see you on board and if you need hepl in anyway I would be happy to assist if possible.Jeff