1ST call times

[MIKE1121]

The placement of the starting gate in relation to the starting timer ( i.e. run up distance) will be a major factor in determining the first call time.If the timer is less than 10 feet from the starting gate like it is or was for pimlico( sorry my data is 5 years plus old) you will have very slow first fractions, if it is 180 to 200 feet like CD 6 furlongs you will see horses running sub 22.

Determining run up distances is a pain staking process, the drf if you visit the tracks sites will list some of the run up distances but most of them you will have to find on your own.The timers are small poles ( about 4 feet or so high, with a small bulb on top)they are spaced every 1/16th of a mile( if my memory serves me). What I did ( wearing out 2 VCRS) was Tape every track I could and in slow motion speed measure by eye ( best guesse) the distance that I estimated the starting gate to be from the first timer. I did this for each track and for each distance. I did multiple races of each to get the best fit.

Here lies the problem.......THE STARTING GATE IS NOT ALWAYS PLACED IN THE SAME POSITION........ sometimes the gate will be placed 10 feet short sometimes 10 feet longer..... this will screw up your first call fractions.. 20 extra feet will cut an extra 1/5th of the first call time easy.This is why pars are limited, they are just looking at averages.

If you are the type of person who needs absolute perfect ratings, you will need to tape all your races and record the run up distances for that day and every day.

Mike.

[Jonathan Steele]

"The placement of the starting gate in relation to the starting timer ( i.e. run up distance) will be a major factor in determining the first call time.If the timer is less than 10 feet from the starting gate like it is or was for pimlico( sorry my data is 5 years plus old) you will have very slow first fractions, if it is 180 to 200 feet like CD 6 furlongs you will see horses running sub 22."

and

"Here lies the problem.......THE STARTING GATE IS NOT ALWAYS PLACED IN THE SAME POSITION........ sometimes the gate will be placed 10 feet short sometimes 10 feet longer..... this will screw up your first call fractions.. 20 extra feet will cut an extra 1/5th of the first call time easy."

You would think by the 21st century the powers that oversee horse racing would have distance standards that would be uniform from track to track. There is absolutely NO reason for this type of inconsistency or sloppiness (re: gate placement).

NO reason at all!

Jon

[socantra]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Steele

[I]
You would think by the 21st century the powers that oversee horse racing would have distance standards that would be uniform from track to track. There is absolutely NO reason for this type of inconsistency or sloppiness (re: gate placement).

NO reason at all!

Jon

There really are no 'powers that oversee horse racing'. There are multiple jurisdictions and no overriding authority.

Personally, I think racing has many problems that require dealing with before they get around to distance standards, like drug standards, past posting, etc, that effect the integrity of the pools.

The more things that are standardized, the less use 'local knowledge' is, and the less advantage to the player who goes to the trouble to learn that local knowledge.

I don't really require the precision that comes with videotaping all the races, but do obtain some small advantage from knowing that Churchill Downs 1st quarters run fast. I'd just as soon not give that advantage away by standardizing everything in sight, no matter what century it is. I'm sure they will get around to it at some point, but I can wait.

Dick

[alydar_ David]

Originally Posted by MIKE1121

....THE STARTING GATE IS NOT ALWAYS PLACED IN THE SAME POSITION........ sometimes the gate will be placed 10 feet short sometimes 10 feet longer..... this will screw up your first call fractions.. 20 extra feet will cut an extra 1/5th of the first call time easy.This is why pars are limited, they are just looking at averages.

If you are the type of person who needs absolute perfect ratings, you will need to tape all your races and record the run up distances for that day and every day.

Mike.

Or, buy the Sheets which are hand-timed from the gate, although that's not going to help with the first call.

[Tim Y]

I have asked repeatedly (of our starter) and from TWO years of observations at both our track and many many others (using videotapes to measure static reference points along the course relative to the gate) and the result is that the gate positon varies only slightly. THE GATE POSITION, on dirt, varies in position a few INCHES. I use the relative camera position of a taped result (as I am used to that reference and knowing that the point of view of the lower pan camera is the same race to race) at courses, then pick a static point (whether that is a overhang of a building, a point on the rail, or the relative position of a light standard) stop the tape, then observe the gate end relative to that point of reference over a time period. At our course (and the starter who has worked at many other race tracks agrees upon questioning), there is a mark aloing the outside fence where the gate crew aligns the gate race in and race out. My camera placement has to be in the same place race to race as I am on attena to the roof and moving more than one foot left or right alters their reception and I know that the view I get race to race is monotonously the same to the point where I rarely have to change focus once set. Another thing that happens at many tracks is that there is a small lane where the crew moves the gate after the field breaks: if there was much variance, the gate couldn't be pulled out of the way down that ramp race to race. The timers are built into points around the course along the rail so that fractional times are taken from STATIC POINTS around the course and it usually takes a thoroughbred only a few strides to get up to speed (see Carrol's book on Speed) .

I always get a kick out of clowns, looking for another reason to buy their book, complicate a rather simple thing, or throw some new variable into something that simply does not exist in order to somehow discover a NEW insight into this or that. ......and then usually put their name on that NEW discovery...that isn't there, but then MIGHT be from the grandstander's point of view....You know the ones who never actually have anything to do with the gate placement but are the annointed "arms length" experts.

THE ONLY REAL VARIABLE, track to track, is how far from that rather static gate position, does the timer rest: some are close some not so close.

[MIKE1121]

As I said my data on starting gate placement is over 5 years old. Have they become more consistant in recent years? I don't know. SOME TRACKS were more consistant than others in gate placement, but many were not. As far as the gate crew goes do they care if the starting gate is plus or minus 10 feet?
Is there a rule for them to be accurate in the gate placement? If they are not are there any reprimands?Are there exceptions for standing water following a rain storm or etc etc... ?


Mike.

[Tim Y]

Originally Posted by MIKE1121

As far as the gate crew goes do they care if the starting gate is plus or minus 10 feet?
Is there a rule for them to be accurate in the gate placement? If they are not are there any reprimands?Are there exceptions for standing water following a rain storm or etc etc... ?

The are rather ANAL about it since the stewards are all over them to be as consistent as possible. It is the resposiblity of the starter and his crew to place the gate correctly. If there is even slight variance, WE ALL HEAR IT LOUD AND CLEAR from the starter and the stewards.
No exceptions the gate goes to the same place each time. Even when several races are at the same point, the gate is moved to re-sruface and then put exactly back at the same spot.

In Canada, all racing is under scurtiny of a federal agency the CPMA (Canadian Parimutuel Agency) and they have several observers at each track to make sure racing is fair and consistent. At a big course like Woodbine, the CPMA sponsored photo patrol crew works INDEPENDENTLY from the Woodbine photo crew, being the ONLY one used for stewards review of racing infractions. I took Ted up to see them when we met there over the summer and their director took us on a tour of the two distinct camera controls. EVERY DAY when I am doing the photo finishing, I have to sign a federal oversight sheet outlining any variations on my duties: I just had to put a note in last week as I missed a straggler who finished 60 lengths behind the field in a harness contest as he broke stride and I lost him. EACH racing day, a fellow we jokingly call Rick the regulator, comes up to my booth to check the alignment of the photo finish camera to make sure that my two targets are consistently parallel.
What kind of confidence in racing would the crowd have if they could not depend upon consistentcy in racing distances? There would be an uproar.

[MIKE1121]

[QUOTE=Tim Y;41942I always get a kick out of clowns, looking for another reason to buy their book, complicate a rather simple thing, or throw some new variable into something that simply does not exist in order to somehow discover a NEW insight into this or that. ......and then usually put their name on that NEW discovery...that isn't there, but then MIGHT be from the grandstander's point of view....You know the ones who never actually have anything to do with the gate placement but are the annointed "arms length" experts.

QUOTE]


Everyone who has a different observation from you is a clown. Ok I get it.

Funny, I thought this was a forum to exchange ideas.

Question: Who is selling anything here?

The only thing I get from sharing my findings with this board is the satisfaction of helping others. I could very easly just keep my findings to myself and profit from them.

Mike.

[Tim Y]

Originally Posted by MIKE1121

Everyone who has a different observation from you is a clown. Ok I get it.

Funny, I thought this was a forum to exchange ideas.

Question: Who is selling anything here?

The only thing I get from sharing my findings with this board is the satisfaction of helping others. I could very easly just keep my findings to myself and profit from them.

IF there were a SHREAD of evidence for that observation, A SHREAD, I would consider it a viable possibility. The grass is where there is probably a wide variation since rail placement changes the circumfernece of the course and the gate palcement is REQUIRED to be changed to account for that difference, and keeping it consistent with the rail changes probably misses the mark.. BUT on dirt, my first hand observations, and dozens and dozens of 2nd hand videotape observations DOES move gate palcement variations on dirt courses into the realm of fiction.....

I would keep fictional observations where they belong.

[gl45]

Mike,
don't waste your time. Use the ignore list. Long time ago I did suggest him to consider a lobotomy with no success.
lbj