Commentary on RDSS/TS Data usage

[Lt1]

Charlie to my knowledge TS is not giving anything away for free. What folks believed to be free info is in fact a TS betting platform. It seems to me that TS overlooked that on their main web page if you click on Bet with the best you are taken to site that Mike showed earlier. I believe they may have now caught this and maybe why RDSS can't get the #s.
Tim

[Ted Craven]

NO. This is incorrect! I don't know any other way to state this more plainly. The webpage RDSS draws from is NOT - repeat NOT - a page which requires a login. Just hit the TwinSpires button on the RDSS Desktop (if you dare). The page which comes up does not prompt you for any login - so by definition you do not need a TS acccount. You can see the Prime Power and ProfitLine (and Tote and Mutuel prices and Scratches) on those pages: the SAME pages Mike showed above.

Debate whether they are free or not at your leisure. But since that revamp of TwinSpires became available (and since I updated the RDSS code several years ago to draw from it) - it has NOT required a login, i.e. it is a PUBLIC page, not behind a paywall.

One more time? You can get the figs RDSS gets if you don't have a TS account. (You naturally do need a TS account to place a bet).

I hope this helps clear up any confusion about public/freely available data versus data behind a paywall. Whether RDSS should access that public/free data and whether you should make use of it - I will leave to each person's discretion. (Though - people have been happy to use it for lo these past many years without the shock and 'pearl-clutching' I observe in this discussion).

While I'm posting - TwinSpires did not just suddenly 'kick off RDSS' - rather, they made yet another nuanced adjustment of their server code (like they have done any number of times in the past) which stymied the existing code RDSS uses. Like the elephant swishing its tale and swatting a fly off its back and the elephant is completely oblivious of doing so - I am about 99.99% confident TS had no idea or could care less who is affected by its changes as long as it makes their own webpages function better when appearing in your browser.

I won't bother elaborating on how I will address this, except to say that RDSS future access will be indistinguishable from accessing the TS public site (the one with no login) from a browser - because it will be using an actual web browser to get the data.

Ted

[DanBoals]

Not sure why people are upset about this, but let me throw out an example of a similar thing.

Lots of websites quote the DJIA. They give credit to the originator (like Ted does) and they present this number on their website under the fair use guidelines. You can go to Yahoo Finance right now and see the closing number. How is this different?

RDSS is simply displaying a publicly available number. Under the fair use guidelines this is perfectly legal. Do you really think every website that shows the Dow Jones Industrial Average is breaking the law?

Ted is not taking someone else's work and presenting it as his own work. That would be wrong of course. You are allowed as a writer or a website to quote or reference other's works. Howard did this all the time. This is nothing new. In fact, Howard's main gripe with this was when people did not credit him for his work so he tried very hard to make sure he always credited others' works.

Having written software for 30+ years as an employee and more often as a consultant, these kind of issues come up all the time and often a lawyer is consulted; and I am not a lawyer, but it seems like what Ted is doing in RDSS is simply the common practice that is called "fair use".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_use

I have been buying RDSS from Ted for about a decade now and he is one of the most transparent and ethical businessmen I have every dealt with. I would bet my last wager ever that he would never knowingly break the law with his software and I see no evidence that anything he is doing with RDSS is either illegal or unethical.

[cratman]

Originally Posted by Mitch44

Having used Bris products for over 30 years it didn't take me long to see that the ones within RDSS were inaccurate. They have improved but still have some inaccuracies. Why would I use second rate products when I can get the best as a Bris and TwinSpires account holder?

Lt1 also uses those from the original source.

Additionally, I don't use RX Factors within the program or Richie Mathie's 4 factors. BTY in consultation with me prior to his passing he changed that and was using a different formula.
I primarily use it for pace. I also have used Bris pace figures for years and their very good.

RDSS continues to have problems with entry's and profit ratings and scratches. With orginal stuff this is not a problem.

Mitch44

Howard once said of Brohamer I believe, that he finds a way to win with whatever tools are available, even where others could not. I suspect that this is also the case with you and and Lt1.

[Mitch44]

Thanks cratman, greatly appreciated.

Mitch44

[Mitch44]

That site is owned by TwinSpires and their policies are the gold standard for not reproducing their products.

Here is their policy again; " The Equibase and TrackMaster® Products are for your use only and may not be transferred to anyone else. In no event, may you transfer, assign, rent, lease, sell, or otherwise dispose of the Equibase or TrackMaster® Products on a permanent or temporary basis except as expressly provided for herein.

If you breach any of these Terms and Conditions of Use, Equibase and/or TwinSpires, in addition to pursuing any other legal remedies available to them, may immediately terminate your right to access the Equibase and TrackMaster® Products."


Pretty clear and obvious to me that its being misused. Want and desire should not interfere with facts.

It was nice of Ranchwest to change the name of his V/DC because Teds couldn't force him to as he doesn't own that either and it's been in the public domain as published by Sartin who had a whole different agenda. I'm well aware of the formula and I would not have changed it out of respect for Sartin. It's still V/DC. Few if really get it so it remains under the radar. Actually, I like it there because its prices haven't been diluted as much as his other stuff.

Mitch44

[shoeless]

I have a question which Ted has already alluded to why bring this up now as it has been in RDSS for years.

Also what do these Bris numbers have to do with the Sartin Methodology anyway

[Jake]

Another RDSS 2.2 Update (fix TS Ratings/Mutuels problems)

As users of this free public domain data, we must roll with the punches.

Stay tuned!

Ted



What is considered public domain?
A work is generally considered to be within the public domain if it is ineligible for copyright protection or its copyright has expired
The public domain - UC Copyright - University of California

University of California Copyright
https://copyright.universityofcalifornia.edu › use › pu..

I’m going to guess that Twinspires isn’t going to consider this free public domain, in this situation. One way to find
out, contact them and ask them if they wish this kind of data scraping to continue…remembering it also supplements the
data downloads from a main competitor, Trackmaster. So, more than one elephant in the room here.

Given all the graying of the lines with the AI generative data scraping by the tech companies, what is actually ethical these
days and last ten years is another question altogether. Just my two bits worth.

Jake

[mattshan]

Thoughts from an infrequent poster –

I am a follower of the posts on this site, a daily RDSS user and a lover of the game of handicapping thoroughbred races. I found this site as well as the Sartin Methodology after nearly 45 years of handicapping with other resources. This “find” was some 6-7 years ago. For me this site has been a valuable and consistent contributor to my learning, re-learning, and helping me find new perspectives that have made the game so much more fun than my previous efforts. I have read much of the literature in the Sartin library, watched many of the videos and have benefitted most from the teachings and sharing of the community members and their online posts. A rich sharing of perspective, counter point, and a reminder that there are more than a few different ways to find value in this game. Thank you to all of you who have shared your perspectives and given guys like me the opportunity to push ourselves and to more fully tackle and appreciate the intellectual challenges that the game presents daily.

I have been casually following the TS thread and have watched, along with many of you as the “conversation “has evolved in its emotionality, critical thinking, and intensity. While it is true that I rarely post on this site I felt it appropriate to add my “two cents” to the thread and share what I have been thinking.

My first thought is to verbalize (as others have done here) my genuine appreciation and respect for Ted. Whether helping my own technically challenged self-load RDSS on to my computer, giving one on one attention to my own (as well as many others, I am sure) various technical challenges over the last 6 years, solving problems like TS data or sharing his own teachings to the community he is obviously and resolutely committed to making the RDSS experience positive for each of us. This level of consistent commitment to customers is more and more difficult to find with companies and I see Ted as a model for customer care and service. I have no doubt that (as he has said) that Ted, with help from others will figure out a solution for this current issue (TS Data) or find an even better solution.

My next thought is to express fully my love for RDSS. I have not tried all the software out there, but I did spend real money on three other software packages before finding RDSS and, for me, they were not useful. I use RDSS as a stand-alone tool. That is how I started with it, and I never found the need to use other data or software resources (other than Trackmaster) alongside RDSS. After reading the posts in this thread I am reminded again of how many ways there are to utilize RDSS whether with additional resources or without. For some it is a stand-alone, for some it is a portion of their toolkit. Whatever an individual chooses to put together, the option is there. What I love the most about RDSS is that it works if one brings a genuine mindset of hard work, continuous learning and experimentation then continuous improvement is inevitable. I personally cannot imagine taking on the daily challenges of handicapping without the efficiency, accuracy, and capability of RDSS. Once again, my regard for RDSS takes me back to Ted and my appreciation for making it core to his business life to develop a tool that can do what RDSS can do. Thank you.

The last thought that I would like to share is a selfish one. For me this community has been a place to go for learning, reading, listening, and finding stimulating material about the handicapping of horse races. It has represented the opportunity to learn from many who are more experienced and capable than myself when it comes to finding value and refined methodology. It has been a rare community in its willingness to share and challenge perspectives. And then………As I sat periodically reading the TS thread it was difficult for me to tolerate the operational nature of the conversation. Difficult because it struck me as a major departure from my previous experience on the site. Difficult because Ted will fix the issue or find a better solution for users because he does that. Difficult because as I reread the full thread there was an emerging critical nature to many of the comments and the choices of words in some of the posts. To put it simply, the conversation has seemed to drift away from the focus on sharing and learning, that brings more skill and better results to all. The selfish part for me is that I hope the community continues to be a forum focused on learning and sharing and continues to benefit the many of us who appreciate that focus. My lesson for myself in this thread is to reach out and express myself otherwise go in the corner and be quiet.

Thoughts expressed.

[cratman]

Originally Posted by mattshan

Thoughts from an infrequent poster –

I am a follower of the posts on this site, a daily RDSS user and a lover of the game of handicapping thoroughbred races. I found this site as well as the Sartin Methodology after nearly 45 years of handicapping with other resources. This “find” was some 6-7 years ago. For me this site has been a valuable and consistent contributor to my learning, re-learning, and helping me find new perspectives that have made the game so much more fun than my previous efforts. I have read much of the literature in the Sartin library, watched many of the videos and have benefitted most from the teachings and sharing of the community members and their online posts. A rich sharing of perspective, counter point, and a reminder that there are more than a few different ways to find value in this game. Thank you to all of you who have shared your perspectives and given guys like me the opportunity to push ourselves and to more fully tackle and appreciate the intellectual challenges that the game presents daily.

I have been casually following the TS thread and have watched, along with many of you as the “conversation “has evolved in its emotionality, critical thinking, and intensity. While it is true that I rarely post on this site I felt it appropriate to add my “two cents” to the thread and share what I have been thinking.

My first thought is to verbalize (as others have done here) my genuine appreciation and respect for Ted. Whether helping my own technically challenged self-load RDSS on to my computer, giving one on one attention to my own (as well as many others, I am sure) various technical challenges over the last 6 years, solving problems like TS data or sharing his own teachings to the community he is obviously and resolutely committed to making the RDSS experience positive for each of us. This level of consistent commitment to customers is more and more difficult to find with companies and I see Ted as a model for customer care and service. I have no doubt that (as he has said) that Ted, with help from others will figure out a solution for this current issue (TS Data) or find an even better solution.

My next thought is to express fully my love for RDSS. I have not tried all the software out there, but I did spend real money on three other software packages before finding RDSS and, for me, they were not useful. I use RDSS as a stand-alone tool. That is how I started with it, and I never found the need to use other data or software resources (other than Trackmaster) alongside RDSS. After reading the posts in this thread I am reminded again of how many ways there are to utilize RDSS whether with additional resources or without. For some it is a stand-alone, for some it is a portion of their toolkit. Whatever an individual chooses to put together, the option is there. What I love the most about RDSS is that it works if one brings a genuine mindset of hard work, continuous learning and experimentation then continuous improvement is inevitable. I personally cannot imagine taking on the daily challenges of handicapping without the efficiency, accuracy, and capability of RDSS. Once again, my regard for RDSS takes me back to Ted and my appreciation for making it core to his business life to develop a tool that can do what RDSS can do. Thank you.

The last thought that I would like to share is a selfish one. For me this community has been a place to go for learning, reading, listening, and finding stimulating material about the handicapping of horse races. It has represented the opportunity to learn from many who are more experienced and capable than myself when it comes to finding value and refined methodology. It has been a rare community in its willingness to share and challenge perspectives. And then………As I sat periodically reading the TS thread it was difficult for me to tolerate the operational nature of the conversation. Difficult because it struck me as a major departure from my previous experience on the site. Difficult because Ted will fix the issue or find a better solution for users because he does that. Difficult because as I reread the full thread there was an emerging critical nature to many of the comments and the choices of words in some of the posts. To put it simply, the conversation has seemed to drift away from the focus on sharing and learning, that brings more skill and better results to all. The selfish part for me is that I hope the community continues to be a forum focused on learning and sharing and continues to benefit the many of us who appreciate that focus. My lesson for myself in this thread is to reach out and express myself otherwise go in the corner and be quiet.

Thoughts expressed.

Well said.