Commentary on RDSS/TS Data usage

[MJS6916]

Originally Posted by Mitch44

"As a Bris customer who pays $125 for unlimited data this is pretty crazy."

" This what you call capitalism at work." Say what!!!

And from Ted;" If Twin Spires /BRIS didn't want people to have freely available access to Prime Power or Profitline figs, they would not put it in the public for unfettered access: they would put it behind a paywall."

Well, the fact is that it is behind a paywall, they sell this and it's not free. It's being pirated illegally. Profit and Prime are owned by BRIS and only they have sole rights of use. Members such as myself can get it free or essentially free because I use their platform to bet, and they provide it for the business I give them in return.

When you open RDSS and see that logo at the bottom take me to TwinSpires, that button is unauthorized.

RDSS has in the past had problems and will continue to in the future as they change their algorithms to stop the steal.

The solution is making a contract and pay a fee to obtain it legally and if need be, raise the price for RDSS. No different than the contract with TrackMaster or Equipbase.

They also have other tricks such as those numbers not being always correct. I.e. Prime being 3 or 4 point incorrect which is huge. I've always gotten them directly from the source therefore I know their accurate.

The bottom line is there is no such thing as justifiable stealing except in the mind of the criminal thief and those with morals of an ally cat used to justify it.

Mitch44

I didn't pay a dime for this. Just sayin'

[cratman]

Originally Posted by Mitch44

"As a Bris customer who pays $125 for unlimited data this is pretty crazy."

" This what you call capitalism at work." Say what!!!

And from Ted;" If Twin Spires /BRIS didn't want people to have freely available access to Prime Power or Profitline figs, they would not put it in the public for unfettered access: they would put it behind a paywall."

Well, the fact is that it is behind a paywall, they sell this and it's not free. It's being pirated illegally. Profit and Prime are owned by BRIS and only they have sole rights of use. Members such as myself can get it free or essentially free because I use their platform to bet, and they provide it for the business I give them in return.

When you open RDSS and see that logo at the bottom take me to TwinSpires, that button is unauthorized.

RDSS has in the past had problems and will continue to in the future as they change their algorithms to stop the steal.

The solution is making a contract and pay a fee to obtain it legally and if need be, raise the price for RDSS. No different than the contract with TrackMaster or Equipbase.

They also have other tricks such as those numbers not being always correct. I.e. Prime being 3 or 4 point incorrect which is huge. I've always gotten them directly from the source therefore I know their accurate.

The bottom line is there is no such thing as justifiable stealing except in the mind of the criminal thief and those with morals of an ally cat used to justify it.

Mitch44

When you open RDSS and see that logo at the bottom take me to TwinSpires, that button is unauthorized.

Not clear what the point is here. Many perhaps most businesses pay a fee for a link to their site. Are you suggesting that Ted is not being paid?

Also, not the same as trackmaster as RDSS uses and manipulate their data as opposed to simply providing the same information which is freely available. As a Twinspires customer could I, in your view, request Ted to obtain the ratings on my behalf and forward the ratings into RDSS?

[Lt1]

Guys I have a TS account and here is what is pointed out to all TS account holders when accessing the profit line classic screen and obtaining the PL #s and which agree to when signing up. I have to sign into my account get this info. Seems to me that if you don't have an account to access you wouldn't be able to get into the TS site.
This product was created, in part, with data supplied by Equibase Company LLC. User agrees not to make commercial use of or to redistribute this product. Draw your own conclusions.
Tim

[Old Arkie Gal]

Sounds like this discussion is getting into areas related to intellectual property, such as patents, trademark, copyrights, ect.and have to meet certain criteria to have legal protection . My background is in academics and intellectual property is highly regarded and is carefully scrutinized. I expect that is not peculiar to academics. These areas/intellectual property require a lot of creative effort and work, and most want some protection for their efforts. Of course, Dr. Sartin’s concepts related to pace did not have legal protection, but I think it was because he took the position of an educator and a healer and was willing to share his knowledge.
Pat

[cratman]

For those who may have an interest and concerns about respect and lack thereof of intellectual property, I recommend visiting the site of US inventor. I have worked with them in an effort to reverse changes in the law by the Supreme Court which have enabled the use of intellectual property without compensation. The problem is real and considerable. I do not consider the insertion of TwinSpires ratings in RDSS as part of this problem.

[Ted Craven]

With respect, some of the posts above are mistaken about a few things:

1. As Mike (MJS6916) demonstrates, the PUBLIC TwinSpires (TS) site is not behind a paywall - obviously. It does not ask for a UID or PWD, hence my original comment that it is a promotional part of the site - intended to induce people to engage further with the paid aspects of the site. This is the only source of data RDSS has ever accessed - PUBLIC.

2. Correct, that TwinSpires offers ratings in its BRISnet PP products which ARE behind a paywall - you need to Login (e.g. Prime Power, ProfitLine, etc), and allowing that those numbers very infrequently vary from those offered on the PUBLIC site (not enough to worry about overall, says Tim G/Lt1 - because I asked), but otherwise its the same numbers both public and private. It's the same as TrackMaster/Equibase selling PP data including the Entries to a race (Race conditions, horse, jockey, trainer names, weight, Post Position, Morning Line, etc, etc) -- while at the same time that same data is freely available on the Equibase public site and hundreds of other sites around the world (i.e. the free Equibase pages you land on from the RDSS Data Centre when you right-click on any card). They offer that data for free to get you to buy stuff! RDSS takes what is only publicly and freely available and presents it to the user for their consideration.

I agree that the Rx3 formula includes ProfitLine rank within it - adding value, in a way, to raw ProfitLine - and I may rethink that.

3. The TwinSpires button on the RDSS Desktop leading to the TS track list for the day - is not illegal. Not MORE illegal than if you put a web-page link on your browser for quick access (is Firefox, or Chrome, or Edge browser doing something illegal enabling folks to access favoured websites quickly and repeatedly?) If one puts a website link on your Windows Desktop, is Microsoft doing something illegal by enabling/permitting that? Or the New York Times or Fox News websites for embedding any number of off-site web links to other sites relevant to articles? That's just ridiculous.

4. If anyone prefers to use the Prime Power and ProfitLine ratings which they get by buying BRISnet PPs - OR if they want to use ANY other rating from any other vendor (like people have been doing since Day 1 and before) - they are most welcomed and it's none of my business. I am just trying to present helpful tools which I like to use.

5. No one has commented over the past 16 years about RDSS use of Tote data drawn from TwinSpires and ancestor sites. But that data is not behind a paywall either. Doesn't matter if one actually makes USE of tote data (though many do). Why the rush to judge now?


I reiterate - after thinking about it, I am not presenting in RDSS anything which someone could not help themselves to anyway for free. And - TwinSpires WANTS you to access that data for free. Plus, my view is: RDSS presentation of that data (2 Ratings and tote data) invites users to engage further with TwinSpires, makes money for TwinSpires, buy data from and place bets with them, etc. My casual estimate is that 50 - 70% of RDSS users bet with TwinSpires, so this is an enabling service.

Folks may not appreciate that when you LOOK at those ratings on the TwinSpires public site (per Mike's images above) or in BRISnet PPs, according to the Terms and Conditions, you are not even allowed to WRITE them down on a piece of paper or ENTER them into a spreadsheet. Just LOOK at them. It's a ridiculous caveat which, while rampant in boilerplate blurbs everywhere, is high-probability never enforced.

Folks are most welcomed to take an 'absolutist' point-of-view about that. Folks are also free to never click on that TwinSpires button, and to never opt-in again to having RDSS display ANY data from TwinSpires when I get it repaired: Ratings, Tote, Results, Scratches - whatever. Please follow your personal interpretation of things for your own moral guidance. Don't worry, be happy!

Wait to see how I present things when I get it back up and running. You will have to Opt-in and accept a disclaimer that you use these data for your own personal use and not for sharing and could find them yourself anyway for free on a public website. No data from TwinSpires will ever 'leap out of the bushes' to ambush you and offend your moral sensibilities. Then, if anyone still thinks I am a 'criminal thief ... with morals of an ally cat' - just write me and I will cheerfully cancel your RDSS subscription and immediately refund the remainder of your Subscription - no worries.

My intention is to have fun with handicapping and engage with interesting and uplifting people. Life is too short and the opportunities for enjoyment too plentiful.

With respect, and best wishes for handicapping success and enjoyment

Ted

[Mitch44]

# 1 Bris, Twinspires and Churchill Downs all have working agreements between each other to enhance their products, and all are copyrighted for the protection of those products. A dig into ant of them will clearly state reproduction of the product is prohibited, and users agree to abide by those agreements. Also note commercial use as used in RDSS to perhaps 2,000 members is prohibited and is specifically addressed.

Peruse the following:
"
THEFT AND FRAUDULENT ACTIVITY
TwinSpires will report any activities that we reasonably believe constitute theft or fraud to the appropriate law enforcement authorities and may prosecute such activities to the fullest extent of the law. To the extent permitted by law, TwinSpires may retain the proceeds resulting from such theft or fraudulent activity and, among other things, use those funds to pay for damages and losses resulting from such theft or fraudulent activity.

LINKING TO THIRD PARTY WEBSITES FROM TWINSPIRES
TwinSpires.com contains links to websites outside of the CDI family. Neither TwinSpires.com nor Churchill Downs Incorporated is responsible for outside (third party) sites' privacy and security measures, policies and guidelines. When clicking through to an outside (third party) site from www.twinspires.com, please be sure you understand each sites' own privacy and security guidelines.

USE OF EQUIBASE DATA AND PRODUCTS
The data used to create the Equibase Products and the TrackMaster® Products are proprietary to and are copyrighted by Equibase Company LLC and Axcis Information Network, Inc. respectively. Unauthorized copying of such data, including modifications thereof, or the creation of programs or products in which such data have been merged or included with other data programs or products, for distribution to third parties, whether gratuitously or for sale, is expressly forbidden. You may be held legally responsible for any proprietary or copyright infringement that is caused or encouraged by your failure to comply with these Terms and Conditions of Use.

You may NOT transfer the Equibase or TrackMaster® Products from one computer to another. You may not distribute copies of the Equibase or TrackMaster® Products to third parties. You may not create derivative works based upon the Equibase or TrackMaster® Products.

The Equibase and TrackMaster® Products are for your use only and may not be transferred to anyone else. In no event, may you transfer, assign, rent, lease, sell, or otherwise dispose of the Equibase or TrackMaster® Products on a permanent or temporary basis except as expressly provided for herein.

If you breach any of these Terms and Conditions of Use, Equibase and/or TwinSpires, in addition to pursuing any other legal remedies available to them, may immediately terminate your right to access the Equibase and TrackMaster® Products.

Your purchase of the Equibase and TrackMaster® Products indicates your acceptance of these Terms and Conditions of Use

Pretty clear and concise to me.
Mitch44

[Mitch44]

#2 I seriously doubt a business would give out free to any and every one and remain in business long. These products are sold for a reason.

"They offer that data for free to get you to buy stuff! RDSS takes what is only publicly and freely available and presents it to the user for their consideration." Only and your definition of only is every day and every track running???

Mitch44

[Mitch44]

# 5 I could care less about Tote data. I don't use and never have used it.

It's not a handicapping factor, just an opinion of the masses who are wrong 66% of the time. The way to profits is not starting off a 66% loser. And if there were any validity to it there never would be any good paying horses.

"I reiterate - after thinking about it, I am not presenting in RDSS anything which someone could not help themselves to anyway for free. And - TwinSpires WANTS you to access that data for free. Plus, my view is: RDSS presentation of that data (2 Ratings and tote data) invites users to engage further with TwinSpires, makes money for TwinSpires, buy data from and place bets with them, etc. My casual estimate is that 50 - 70% of RDSS users bet with TwinSpires, so this is an enabling service." MAO over this far reach of justification. When they give you an award for all this fine help your giving, please let me know so I can attend. Perhaps some of our members can nominate you for this prestigious award.

5 cond. " Opt-in and accept a disclaimer" Like that will supersede the legal copyrights etc. I don't think so.

Mitch44

[Mitch44]

"I agree that the Rx3 formula includes ProfitLine rank within it - adding value, in a way, to raw ProfitLine - and I may rethink that."

May, now there's a big little word and I seriously doubt it.

Mitch44