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Old 10-12-2018, 07:02 PM   #11
Grade 1
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: The Villages, Fl.
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Your first two paragraphs are well documented. Bradshaw was a HS track coach and ran races in his youth against other Indians which served him well later in his understanding of the match up. Ditto for the "Doc" in his writings.

Bradshaw was also smart enough to know the race doesn't end at the 2nd Call. Many races are won by Pressers, SP and S type horses. In fact these horses are immune to the early pace pressure and run good HE and Late or 3rd Fr. while mowing down the E or EP's gasping for air. Anyone who doesn't consider all running styles or totally disregard OTE horses are going to take a lot of beats.

Yes the methodology has been around 30 years however most can not employ it effectively nor do they understand it. Hell many on this site can't obtain 65 % ( a Sartin standard). Those that I know that can all employ the best of the last 3 at a comparable distance and surface. The "Doc's" guidelines.

Far too many, particularity the public are fix sated on the last race. Most fail to understand Sartin guidelines. He does not say the last 3 races, most fail to employ the part that says;"at a comparable distance and surface." I have had this take me back to line 9 even, wherever it takes me is where I go.

I have enjoyed many of trips with this also. One I'll always remember was at the Meadowlands seminar in the early 90's when I used Line 9 in a turf race to get a turf line for a horse. It won and paid huge. Only Lt1 and I had it. We gave it to a guy from England who asked us who we liked, I believe his name was Tim also. He made a bundle on it and to pay for his whole trip. Sartin told us not to tell Jimmy "The Hat" because he gets pissed if someone had a horse he didn't get. He found out but was happy for us and quickly told Howard.

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Old 10-12-2018, 07:57 PM   #12
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Location: Valley Stream NY
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Mitch I remember that race well. It was pouring at the Spa and the turf was yielding. The horse we had paid $50 and we had the ex for $500+. Yes we were with Tim Brothers who was making his 1st trip to the States. He did indeed end up paying for his entire trip. You are also correct that Jimmy always cautioned that the race didn't end at the 2nd call and tracks didn't pay the horse in front at that call. The Doc, points out, in his 1 on 1 seminar tapes, the advantage that compounded fractions have over the visual matchup. Jimmy,himself, always urged us to use the latest program since he had programmed the matchup into it. Like you I also learned to use the best of the last 3 comparable dist & etc. surface and have used it with good success since 1990. I know that there are other ways to win with the Methodology but as for me I prefer to go with the Docs' way.
Trust but verify
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Old 10-12-2018, 09:00 PM   #13
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Mitch, you win because you have put in the work. You have confidence. Many of the youngsters to Pace and Cap and RDSS haven't. I can't count how many have come on and posted only to start asking for horses and then disappearing.

I don't post much anymore because it seems I offend too many people and it just isn't enjoyable to either defend myself or be rude. But I too have put in the work over 5 years and I have been handicapping since I was 15. I just passed my 68th birthday. I always wanted to be like Jim Bradshaw who was introduced to in Las Vegas but unfortunately only knew him well enough to nod to him in passing. Following his teachings through Richie P has changed my life. It has allowed me to understand what is happening on the track which I didn't for decades. And most of it can't be computerized so the prices are unreal.

So occasionally I try to give a pointer or two which is most often met with hostility. Personally, I hold Jim Bradshaw in the highest esteem. He was a genius in my book. That doesn't me that I disrespect Doc but between the two, there is just no comparison. As they used to say in my career, "Those that can do, those that can't teach". Doc Sartin brought it all together and promoted it or there would be a great loss to the handicapping world today.
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Old 10-13-2018, 01:07 AM   #14
Join Date: May 2006
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the Doc

I would say that the Doc and Jim had different strengths. Depending upon your background, one or the other might be more helpful to you. The Doc was truly excellent when it cam to psychology. According to a client of mine whom I introduced to the Doc, he provided an insight (on a work project) that a consultant, who years later won a Nobel prize, did not arrive at but instantly agreed with.
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:11 AM   #15
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Thanks for the compliment Mark. Yes some only want picks and I've found that out helping some. BTW I don't do that and inform them of that when they ask. I learned from Sartin that your only as good as your last pick and if it lost your all kinds of foul names. Once they know that they disappear. None of us win them all.

Many others also want all the answers but don't want to work nor appreciate the years put in to get good at this. Those that don't or won't put in the work are destine to failure. Nothing is appreciated if it comes easy, hard work reinforces, both good and bad lessons are never forgotten.

The site can be hostile at times which is why I've cut down my posting. I have nothing to prove anyway as I've done that. Just chugging along and busy as hell. Can't ever seem to catch up and I'm involved in too many things. Hinders my playing time also.

I was lucky to be able to hang out with Sartin and Bradshaw and get help from them. Brohamer was always friendly but not around much after the presentations whereas Doc and Jimmy were. We frequently closed up the bar and the conversations were always interesting. We listened much more than run our mouth.(LT1 & I) Wish they were still with us.

RDSS today is extremely easy compared to the evolution we went through. But it remains very tough to most to comprehend concept and effectively employ it. Money management and discipline are big factors that all destroy many.

The match up is the most difficult to employ and easier to understand if one has a foundation of the teachings of Sartin, even than a difficult task to conquer. I can employ it and do at times with some success but my forte is with Sartin's main thrust of his proven program of RDSS. A player needs to know their capabilities and limitations to be successful.

Sartin taught Bradshaw the Matchup however Bradshaw took it to a level that Sartin could not obtain. Bradshaw was always thankful and together they collaborated to obtain proficiency that few could meet and the best pace handicapping program out there even to this day.

Best of luck Mark.
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:05 AM   #16
lone speed
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Many great contributions in this thread

There are a few great post here....

It may not deal with specifics about pace line selections or narrowing down contenders...but there are many post about one's determined mindset and approaches to using many facets of the Methodology.

Many thanks and appreciation to many who shared their thoughts in this thread.
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