Jedis To Join The Monkey On Sidelines

[Mitch44]

Thanks Jon and Jim for your kind remarks and its greatly appreciated.

Mitch44

[Mitch44]

Ted,
Reference post # 23.

Yes, I'm a firm believer it's a peril to newcomers. Upon reaching an impasse or obstacle while traveling the path to success it's imperative they have the proper orientation to succeed. These unnecessary forks in the road should be eliminated for a newbie to complete the journey to the best of their individual ability. They should not be thrown to the wolves or presented with situations they are not prepared for.

Proper orientation would include the 101 beginners' area be brought up to date. Scrubbed of outdated stuff and more oriented to the beginner. Placed in a logical order such as Contenders, choosing the proper pace line Etc.

There should be a warning in there about the difficulty and high failure rate of using the Match Up and that it's included in the program. And as a progression their understanding of RDSS and Sartin teaching will prepare them for the Match UP which is a valid concept at a later date. If they fail to heed the warning, then that's on them.

They should be made aware that no older program will outperform the modern-day version of RDSS. It's the bomb, no its the Mother of all bombs which is why I just re-up for 2 more years.

The older programs should be given their own area, those that are interested can go to that area.

This would stop the disruption and lessen the confusion of members who must wonder which is programs are best. It should be obvious to them after the last week to 10 days what's best. But what about a week or so from now when those thread and posts are gone. Yea, back to that fork in the road and most likely taking the wrong path.

We'll never know how many misguided went the wrong direction or may have become the next Sartin, Brohammer or a Bradshaw.

The best thing we can do to bring success among members is to take out the trash, hence get rid of all these old programs. Conducive learning can't be accomplished with constant interruptions and barriers to communications.

I don't speak for others, but I won't participate or be a part of it. It's just downright unjust to those we're trying to help.

Mitch44

[Mitch44]

Jeff;

Excuses only benefit those who make them, winners find a way to conquer and overcome. If their budget is that tight perhaps, they should not be in the game. This game requires discretionary spending or $. Family and agreed to obligations always come first. My advice is stay away till you can afford it.

Mitch44

[Lt1]

I debated whether to do this but I will add my 2 cents to this discussion. First on the matter of paceline selection the Doc spells it out clearly in FU #81[the Publishers' section] There can be no doubt as what approach to use. Bill V even reposted the approach on the site. I know that at one point in time this was not the approach, however, those approaches were rendered outdated by Doc in 1990[when I joined the group] For our new comers and those who are struggling I recommend rereading FU 81. As for contender selections there are several methods that can be employed. I,myself, use the top 5 ranked BPP & Pl horses. I has question posed to me about using the top 5 M/l favs. I would think if the odds maker is good[and most are] then it would most likely have the winner it the group around 90% of the time. Some may still use the top 5 speed ranked horse. Choose you method [remember to be consistent in your approach]. Finally on the subject of old programs all I can say is outside of Doc and the teaching members[and current member Ray Lopez] I know of no one[including myself] who reached the level of success they are enjoying with RDSS. I strongly urge new members and those struggling to forego using them and concentrate your efforts on becoming well versed with RDSS. Ted and Mick have provided very good documentation and there are 4 webinars showing how successful members are using it as well as this forum to ask questions. I'll close by say sorry to anyone I may have offended but as 1 of the Foundering Fathers once said "if you are afraid to offend you can not tell the truth." Hope to see more winning scores posted on the site as folks progress.
Tim

[darmar]

Thanks Tim your post was great. We all want to successful at this real tough vocation and if you are willing to or are able to spend the time learning and applying these steps you can achieve as much success as you wish. Even crusty old dogs like us never stop learning by absorbing each others nuances and using them ,(ie the uncoupled entry angle and the workout angle ) As for.me. I have become a much better handicapper from being around you guys and drawing for your experience
Darryl

[shoeless]

Mitch

The older programs do have their own area

Jeff

[Mitch44]

No, they don't Jeff. What they have is a subtitle, that's all. Everything appears under today's posts. Their own area would be a button or link that one would click on, and it would take them to any and all post, picks etc. for old programs. Ditto for RDSS and match Up etc. Lessens the confusion tremendously. Anyone that wants to go there can and those not using that particular method don't have to. Nice and neat and everyone happy, happy.
(:

The days of hand input and poor readouts are over.

Mitch44

[Ted Craven]

Here is the dedicated Forum for Older Sartin Programs which Jeff refers to: http://paceandcap.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=36

Mitch - you might be looking at the New Posts link on the site top menu bar which lists ALL new messages from ALL forums since you last checked. In that listing, all messages are intermingled with the relevant Forum shown in the right hand column. However, anyone posting stuff related to Older Programs posts it in that dedicated Forum. If something is inadvertently posted elsewhere, I try to move it. I confess I do not check that Forum sometimes from one week to the next.

Agreed we need to move on to the latest tools to stay ahead. Perhaps we have a difference of opinion as to how much effect that older forum has on folks seriously wanting to learn and evolve their practice (little, IMO - more, in your opinion). So be it.

I also won't remove the Matchup Forum and all Richie P and Jim Bradshaw's work. Nor the complete set of Follow Ups, nor all the older Manuals and videos and audios. This site is a repository of the COMPLETE history of the Sartin Methodology and its evolution to the modern day and into the future. It exists nowhere else online and represents the years-long efforts of many, many members. That was Bill V's vision and mine as well.

If people can't tell the difference between learning the history of a domain (e.g. Newtonian physics, then Quantum Physics, then modern String Theory, etc) from current best practices - even when it's made clear to them - then those people are not good candidates to learn horse race analysis and betting on this website.

Agreed - all the educational material needs to be re-organized - including older stuff being segregated - and better documented to represent the very latest tools and practices. This is a not inconsiderable task, but one which must be done over the next year or so (or less) and is top of my mind before I sail off into the sunset (whenever that might be). Some readers of these posts will know of discussion we've had on this re-organization project.

Ted

[Jake]

Originally Posted by Ted Craven

Here is the dedicated Forum for Older Sartin Programs which Jeff refers to:
http://paceandcap.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=36

Mitch - you might be looking at the New Posts link on the site top menu bar which lists ALL new messages from ALL forums since you last checked. In the view, all messages are intermingled with the relevant Forum int he right hand column. However, anyone posting stuff related to Older Programs posts it in that dedicated Forum. If something is inadvertently posted elsewhere, I try to move it. I confess I do not check that Forum sometimes from one week to the next.

Agreed we need to move on to the latest tools to stay ahead. Perhaps we have a difference of opinion as to how much effect that older forum has on folks seriously wanting to learn and evolve their practice (little, IMO - more, in your opinion). So be it.

I also won't remove the Matchup Forum and all Richie P and Jim Bradshaw's work. Nor the complete set of Follow Ups, nor all the older Manuals and videos and audios. This site is a repository of the COMPLETE history of the Sartin Methodology and its evolution to the modern day and into the future. It exists no where else online. That was Bill V's vision and mine as well.

If people can't tell the difference between learning the history of a domain (e.g. Newtonian physics, then Quantum Physics, then modern String Theory, etc) from current best practices - even when it's made clear to them - then those people are not good candidates to learn horse race analysis and betting on this website.

Agreed - all the educational material needs to be re-organized - including older stuff being segregated - and better documented to represent the very latest tools and practices. This is a not inconsiderable task, but one which must be done over the next year or so (or less) and is top of my mind before I sail off into the sunset (whenever that might be). Some readers of these posts will know of discussion we've had on this re-organization project.

Ted

I have no dog in this fight. However, I did download for reading the Matchups stuff, the manuals and the Follow-ups just last month and have spent a fair
amount of hours working my way through this massive elephant one bite at a time.

It's like all good education. You get out of it what you're ready to understand. I have used a strong matchup pace approach extensively for many years.
I have done very well with it. So, for me this is a great repository of handicapping knowledge that I appreciate being able to revisit again. Thanks.

[Mitch44]

Ted,
I generally click on quick links and then todays posts. True there are several areas and guidelines but rather than remain in a specific area they all end up in one place just under a different heading. IMO they should remain in a specific area for those that may be interested in it. For ex. if I'm interested in the Match Up I can go there, and it'll list all post for that particular topic whether posted today or yesterday Etc. Now I would go there as it's a valid concept along with RDSS. I would never click on old programs. It's no different than organizing a file cabinet. Here everything is just the same and thrown in one mess of a drawer.

I never said or advocated for removal of the Match UP, Bradshaw writing or Richie P work. Folks re-read my posts. In fact, I never advocated removal of old programs but they or any post to that subject remain in its proper division. Should remain separate from any post related to RDSS even under today's posts or beginners' area. Another could be Advanced concepts, such as for Scots factors, % Med. Etc.

Glad we can agree on some reorganization needs to take place; I'll be looking forward to it but not holding my breath. This is your baby, and you have the right to raise it anyway you want. In the meantime, I'm out.

Mitch44