The Matchup from a slightly different perspective - Pace and Cap

RichieP · 02-19-2009, 09:27 AM

Buona fortuna Richie

For any of the folks who are having any difficulties with understanding the Matchup a la Jim Bradshaw and would like to hear it expressed in a slightly different way by another person, I would encourage them to go to Club Pace and Cap and check out the audios from the Las Vegas 91 seminar. Canadian teaching member Gary Owens does an excellent job explaining and illustrating what he learned directly from Mr. Bradshaw. Tapes 4-3 thru 5-2.

Joseph Wolpert

**Thank you so much Joe for helping out!** RichieP

tom · 02-19-2009, 12:15 PM

Was that the "Ace the Pace" guy?
He gave us a presentation at Albany one year.....excellent!

shoeless · 02-19-2009, 06:07 PM

Funny you mention that I was listening to it today for about the 10th time,he does do an excellent job of explaining it.

Tom that is the ace the pace guy.Jeff

raceman5 · 02-20-2009, 08:56 AM

tape. But here is a question for the group. Lets say the pace of the race we are looking at is going to be 22-45. Some of the folks on this board advocate taking the best of the last 3 races. If a horses last 3 races were all 6fur. and he had a good race (good race to me is one who fin within 5 lengths of the winner) with a 23-46 why enter this horse? The reason i bring this up is i see Ritchie post alot of Rdss examples. In his examples he takes best of last 3. And i have noticed horses entered are not even close to todays projected pace. Now granted we try and get the horses down to 5 by taking the top 5 energy and perceptor horses. Now after we do this shouldn't we take another look at the top 5 that are left and eliminate the ones who cannot run against todays projected pace? Or do we just let the Trackmaster Variant do this? I know one thing that doc always scolded us about and that is we are an adjust happy group.
Now i belive Dick Schmindt did an article in the follow up on when to adjust a race using the track variant. And it was, when we are thru choosing all are pace lines look at the track variant in the form, lets say we have 6 hoeses and all ran against a variant of 17. In this case we make know adjustments. If it waivers 3 pts either way then 2 adjust or find another line. I know Jimmy never adjusted. He told me at a Saratoga seminar many yrs ago, just use fast horses. Well i know i have opened up an old can of worms here, bur lets see if we can get some good old fashion dialogue here. No insults, just some good input. Oh one more thing. I know Tim and a few others have said when playing Aqu. do not use Philly Park lines as they are too fast. Maybe Ted should talk to Trackmaster about fixing the variant on this.

Bob

jwolpert · 02-20-2009, 10:21 AM

First of all, I don't use a computer program in handicapping. I simply use a racing form. With this approach - you first project what you believe to be the first two calls of the race - then, you select a paceline from the horses which shows the horse can run against this pace competively. If it can't run against the pace - you eliminate it. It has nothing to do with the best of the last three. You're mixing two different approaches here for pace line selection. What you do or not do with a "variant" is up to you. My understanding of the latest programs is to do "nothing" about the variant - it has been done for you. At least, that is what Dr. Sartin said. Good capping.

**Exactly Joe. The stuff that I put up on other threads is using NON MATCHUP method laid out in advance. RAW matching and the concepts in THIS forum have nothing to do with bl3 or any other of the stuff seen in other threads.** RichieP

raceman5 · 02-20-2009, 01:05 PM

Actually RDSS does have something to do with the variant, as it is recommended that we use 50% of variant. Same as Richie used on his selections at Santa Anita today.

Bob

**Again for clarity the SA thread has NOTHING to do with matching horses Mr. Bradshaw's way.** RichieP

Charlie D · 02-20-2009, 03:32 PM

Thanks for flagging those tapes up guys

shoeless · 02-20-2009, 05:28 PM

Sorry to butt in but on that same tape Hat gives what I believe to be one of his best presentations on the match up.I dont know exactly where it is but it's when they came back for the evening session after Hat had finished explaining on using Thoromation.

raceman5 · 02-20-2009, 06:13 PM

Shoe, your not buting in buddy, all opinions are welcome here. If you find out what tapes those are let us know, would love to listen. The time i got to spend with him for 15 min or so 1 on 1 was a blessing at a Saratoga seminar many yrs ago.

Bob

shoeless · 02-20-2009, 11:24 PM

Actually listening to the Hat's presentation led me to a winner tonight in the 7th at Penn National,he talked about how horses that run well against the fastest pace in today's race will come back and win at a good clip. Jeff

02-19-2009, 09:27 AM	#1
RichieP Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 7,014	The Matchup from a slightly different perspective Buona fortuna Richie For any of the folks who are having any difficulties with understanding the Matchup a la Jim Bradshaw and would like to hear it expressed in a slightly different way by another person, I would encourage them to go to Club Pace and Cap and check out the audios from the Las Vegas 91 seminar. Canadian teaching member Gary Owens does an excellent job explaining and illustrating what he learned directly from Mr. Bradshaw. Tapes 4-3 thru 5-2. Joseph Wolpert Thank you so much Joe for helping out! RichieP __________________ "Grampy I'm talking to you!"

02-20-2009, 08:56 AM	#4
raceman5 Grade 1 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Largo Fl. Posts: 2,295	Excellent tape. But here is a question for the group. Lets say the pace of the race we are looking at is going to be 22-45. Some of the folks on this board advocate taking the best of the last 3 races. If a horses last 3 races were all 6fur. and he had a good race (good race to me is one who fin within 5 lengths of the winner) with a 23-46 why enter this horse? The reason i bring this up is i see Ritchie post alot of Rdss examples. In his examples he takes best of last 3. And i have noticed horses entered are not even close to todays projected pace. Now granted we try and get the horses down to 5 by taking the top 5 energy and perceptor horses. Now after we do this shouldn't we take another look at the top 5 that are left and eliminate the ones who cannot run against todays projected pace? Or do we just let the Trackmaster Variant do this? I know one thing that doc always scolded us about and that is we are an adjust happy group. Now i belive Dick Schmindt did an article in the follow up on when to adjust a race using the track variant. And it was, when we are thru choosing all are pace lines look at the track variant in the form, lets say we have 6 hoeses and all ran against a variant of 17. In this case we make know adjustments. If it waivers 3 pts either way then 2 adjust or find another line. I know Jimmy never adjusted. He told me at a Saratoga seminar many yrs ago, just use fast horses. Well i know i have opened up an old can of worms here, bur lets see if we can get some good old fashion dialogue here. No insults, just some good input. Oh one more thing. I know Tim and a few others have said when playing Aqu. do not use Philly Park lines as they are too fast. Maybe Ted should talk to Trackmaster about fixing the variant on this. Bob

02-20-2009, 10:21 AM	#5
jwolpert Racing Form Only Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 33	Best Race for Pace First of all, I don't use a computer program in handicapping. I simply use a racing form. With this approach - you first project what you believe to be the first two calls of the race - then, you select a paceline from the horses which shows the horse can run against this pace competively. If it can't run against the pace - you eliminate it. It has nothing to do with the best of the last three. You're mixing two different approaches here for pace line selection. What you do or not do with a "variant" is up to you. My understanding of the latest programs is to do "nothing" about the variant - it has been done for you. At least, that is what Dr. Sartin said. Good capping. Exactly Joe. The stuff that I put up on other threads is using NON MATCHUP method laid out in advance. RAW matching and the concepts in THIS forum have nothing to do with bl3 or any other of the stuff seen in other threads. RichieP Last edited by RichieP; 02-20-2009 at 10:56 AM.

02-20-2009, 01:05 PM	#6
raceman5 Grade 1 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Largo Fl. Posts: 2,295	Actually RDSS does have something to do with the variant, as it is recommended that we use 50% of variant. Same as Richie used on his selections at Santa Anita today. Bob Again for clarity the SA thread has NOTHING to do with matching horses Mr. Bradshaw's way. RichieP Last edited by RichieP; 02-20-2009 at 02:56 PM.

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02-19-2009, 12:15 PM	#2
tom Grade 1 Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 644	Was that the "Ace the Pace" guy? He gave us a presentation at Albany one year.....excellent!

02-19-2009, 06:07 PM	#3
shoeless Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 4,151	Funny you mention that I was listening to it today for about the 10th time,he does do an excellent job of explaining it. Tom that is the ace the pace guy.Jeff

02-20-2009, 03:32 PM	#7
Charlie D Match Up Apprentice Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 2,105	Thanks for flagging those tapes up guys

02-20-2009, 05:28 PM	#8
shoeless Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 4,151	Sorry to butt in but on that same tape Hat gives what I believe to be one of his best presentations on the match up.I dont know exactly where it is but it's when they came back for the evening session after Hat had finished explaining on using Thoromation.

02-20-2009, 06:13 PM	#9
raceman5 Grade 1 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Largo Fl. Posts: 2,295	Shoe, your not buting in buddy, all opinions are welcome here. If you find out what tapes those are let us know, would love to listen. The time i got to spend with him for 15 min or so 1 on 1 was a blessing at a Saratoga seminar many yrs ago. Bob

02-20-2009, 11:24 PM	#10
shoeless Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 4,151	Actually listening to the Hat's presentation led me to a winner tonight in the 7th at Penn National,he talked about how horses that run well against the fastest pace in today's race will come back and win at a good clip. Jeff