What is all the hype about - Pace and Cap

trotman · 12-13-2011, 04:53 PM

You know the longer you play this great game for me all the carnival boys selling their wares keeps me in silence but now I have to speak. For those who know me I don't put any substance into the Beyer's it is just numbers twisted and contorted to fit. I will give credit to Beyer in that he revived handicapping a bit, but in all I don't even think he uses his numbers anymore. A race is a one off never duplicated so how do pars come into the picture to predict what will happen today, maybe and that's a slight maybe. Taulbot, Mahl, Sartin, Brohammer, Pizzolla, Jim the Hat all had their idea's in how to deal with pace and match-ups disect that and learn it and you will understand. Now the big par seller who worked for the original par seller and hooked up with Beyer, you're using is now pitching everything including the kitchen sink and most think this fellow knows. Well I'll lay it out for you, you're using RDSS because it is very good and yet I don't use it but for some I don't think you have grasped the potential so back off with it and challenge it and then and only then you will see what I'm talking about. I hear it now how can He be a know it all yet he does not use RDSS, well do you know pace that should be the question and any blanks in your mind then you have the answer.

JimG · 12-13-2011, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trotman

Well I'll lay it out for you, you're using RDSS because it is very good and yet I don't use it but for some I don't think you have grasped the potential so back off with it and challenge it and then and only then you will see what I'm talking about.

Were you addressing the above to anyone in particular or to the membership in general?

Jim

trotman · 12-13-2011, 05:20 PM

Jim it was to no one, it was more of a rant. I really think that now with the net anyone can hawk what they have and I have been around for a stretch and I see how easy anyone could fall into one way of thinking because of the claims. And maybe it was my rant because I see handicappers going back to see what they missed with the Beyers and if they asked me they missed nothing but were misdirected by what they thought the numbers were. My sample was every day for over 40 years and my opininion of what breaks a race down is the Taulbot, Mahl, Sartin, Pizzolla, Brohammer.

El Santo · 12-13-2011, 11:27 PM

How do you feel about Einstein's theory?

DaveEdwards · 12-14-2011, 02:54 AM

Trotman, I'm sorry but I don't understand your point here.

In reference to RDSS,as far as I am concerned it must be the least hawked piece of software ever. The information about it is on the site, you may read about it if you choose to & you may also subscribe if you choose to. Since joining the site I never once received an unsolicited email or message trying to induce me into buying. It was entirely my own decision.

trotman · 12-14-2011, 07:30 AM

Dave I guess my rant confused many so I will answer. Many people go searching the web for info and then there are the lurkers that visit sites such as Pace and Cap to see if they can I think satisfy what they are missing. And my rant was in a round about way of saying stop in and see what some in this group have to say. I have way too much respect for Ted and this group to knock it in any way. I have read all of the manuals and the follow-ups and I think that there is a tremendous amount of information here as long as you're not expecting a black box which we all know doesn't exsist. What you will get is sound idea's and principals.

benzer · 12-14-2011, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trotman

You know the longer you play this great game for me all the carnival boys selling their wares keeps me in silence but now I have to speak. For those who know me I don't put any substance into the Beyer's it is just numbers twisted and contorted to fit. I will give credit to Beyer in that he revived handicapping a bit, but in all I don't even think he uses his numbers anymore. A race is a one off never duplicated so how do pars come into the picture to predict what will happen today, maybe and that's a slight maybe. Taulbot, Mahl, Sartin, Brohammer, Pizzolla, Jim the Hat all had their idea's in how to deal with pace and match-ups disect that and learn it and you will understand. Now the big par seller who worked for the original par seller and hooked up with Beyer, you're using is now pitching everything including the kitchen sink and most think this fellow knows. Well I'll lay it out for you, you're using RDSS because it is very good and yet I don't use it but for some I don't think you have grasped the potential so back off with it and challenge it and then and only then you will see what I'm talking about. I hear it now how can He be a know it all yet he does not use RDSS, well do you know pace that should be the question and any blanks in your mind then you have the answer.

Hi, Your rant does not really answer any questions or provide solutions. While your last response was a good save response, it does not answer the question of why would you post this in the first place?

Do you have a better way of measuring pace and or speed?

I'm not trying to be a butt, but you should break your info up with paragraph breaks for easier reading.

trotman · 12-15-2011, 08:36 AM

benzer: I might be wrong but I don't believe that horses run against a mythical time standard and by creating a variant based on these mythical times is flawed.

Jim the Hat had in my mind the best explanation of handicapping a race and how the pace sets up will determine who should win.

A short paragraph from the Match-Up:

The level of success is the ability to have a clear understanding of what to expect when the gates open. To win a race, a horse must be able to dominate all the other horses in the race. This will be resolved during the running of the race. Remember, the race will be run in fractional times, and each fraction is important. A race will not be won by stand-alone-numbers, but by the total race.

Heck, it ain't nothing but a "dang" horse race. One horse goes out and gets the lead and the others try to catch up.

My belief and practice has been what the Hat described above.

benzer · 12-15-2011, 07:10 PM

Trotman,
Good explanation and I appreciate the breaks in your words. So much easier to read.

I think your level of understanding of horse racing is greater than your original rant implied.

JimG · 12-15-2011, 07:56 PM

I think one of the things I like best about the Sartin Methodology is there can be many ways to skin the cat to success as long as your method(s) are founded on solid pace principles. I am sure there are people that win with the Match-up, RDSS, Val4, and other dos programs. Handicapping is vital. Knowing when and how to bet is equally vital. Knowing yourself and the psychology of handicapping and betting (winning and losing) is also very important.

There is no One way to win no more than there is just One way to lose.

Jim

12-13-2011, 04:53 PM	#1
trotman Grade 1 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 259	What is all the hype about You know the longer you play this great game for me all the carnival boys selling their wares keeps me in silence but now I have to speak. For those who know me I don't put any substance into the Beyer's it is just numbers twisted and contorted to fit. I will give credit to Beyer in that he revived handicapping a bit, but in all I don't even think he uses his numbers anymore. A race is a one off never duplicated so how do pars come into the picture to predict what will happen today, maybe and that's a slight maybe. Taulbot, Mahl, Sartin, Brohammer, Pizzolla, Jim the Hat all had their idea's in how to deal with pace and match-ups disect that and learn it and you will understand. Now the big par seller who worked for the original par seller and hooked up with Beyer, you're using is now pitching everything including the kitchen sink and most think this fellow knows. Well I'll lay it out for you, you're using RDSS because it is very good and yet I don't use it but for some I don't think you have grasped the potential so back off with it and challenge it and then and only then you will see what I'm talking about. I hear it now how can He be a know it all yet he does not use RDSS, well do you know pace that should be the question and any blanks in your mind then you have the answer. __________________ "Success consists of simply getting back up one more time than you fall"

12-13-2011, 05:20 PM	#3
trotman Grade 1 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 259	Jim it was to no one, it was more of a rant. I really think that now with the net anyone can hawk what they have and I have been around for a stretch and I see how easy anyone could fall into one way of thinking because of the claims. And maybe it was my rant because I see handicappers going back to see what they missed with the Beyers and if they asked me they missed nothing but were misdirected by what they thought the numbers were. My sample was every day for over 40 years and my opininion of what breaks a race down is the Taulbot, Mahl, Sartin, Pizzolla, Brohammer. __________________ "Success consists of simply getting back up one more time than you fall"

12-14-2011, 07:30 AM	#6
trotman Grade 1 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 259	Dave I guess my rant confused many so I will answer. Many people go searching the web for info and then there are the lurkers that visit sites such as Pace and Cap to see if they can I think satisfy what they are missing. And my rant was in a round about way of saying stop in and see what some in this group have to say. I have way too much respect for Ted and this group to knock it in any way. I have read all of the manuals and the follow-ups and I think that there is a tremendous amount of information here as long as you're not expecting a black box which we all know doesn't exsist. What you will get is sound idea's and principals. __________________ "Success consists of simply getting back up one more time than you fall"

12-15-2011, 08:36 AM	#8
trotman Grade 1 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 259	benzer: I might be wrong but I don't believe that horses run against a mythical time standard and by creating a variant based on these mythical times is flawed. Jim the Hat had in my mind the best explanation of handicapping a race and how the pace sets up will determine who should win. A short paragraph from the Match-Up: The level of success is the ability to have a clear understanding of what to expect when the gates open. To win a race, a horse must be able to dominate all the other horses in the race. This will be resolved during the running of the race. Remember, the race will be run in fractional times, and each fraction is important. A race will not be won by stand-alone-numbers, but by the total race. Heck, it ain't nothing but a "dang" horse race. One horse goes out and gets the lead and the others try to catch up. My belief and practice has been what the Hat described above. __________________ "Success consists of simply getting back up one more time than you fall"

12-13-2011, 11:27 PM	#4
El Santo Gone Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 16	How do you feel about Einstein's theory?

12-14-2011, 02:54 AM	#5
DaveEdwards Grade 1 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: England Posts: 500	Trotman, I'm sorry but I don't understand your point here. In reference to RDSS,as far as I am concerned it must be the least hawked piece of software ever. The information about it is on the site, you may read about it if you choose to & you may also subscribe if you choose to. Since joining the site I never once received an unsolicited email or message trying to induce me into buying. It was entirely my own decision.

12-15-2011, 07:10 PM	#9
benzer AlwNW3X Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 49	Trotman, Good explanation and I appreciate the breaks in your words. So much easier to read. I think your level of understanding of horse racing is greater than your original rant implied.

12-15-2011, 07:56 PM	#10
JimG Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 992	I think one of the things I like best about the Sartin Methodology is there can be many ways to skin the cat to success as long as your method(s) are founded on solid pace principles. I am sure there are people that win with the Match-up, RDSS, Val4, and other dos programs. Handicapping is vital. Knowing when and how to bet is equally vital. Knowing yourself and the psychology of handicapping and betting (winning and losing) is also very important. There is no One way to win no more than there is just One way to lose. Jim