Belmont and true money riders - Pace and Cap

trotman · 06-09-2012, 08:07 PM

The Belmont today was exactly a money riders race and proves to me that owners and trainers don't know everything. Michael Matz rides a everyday rider in J. Leparoux who I have thought as very suspect as a stakes rider and it cost him the races that counts. Kent Desormeaux,, and Julien Leparoux are way overrated as riders. Did I bet no, did I have an opinion yes Union Rags to win. A great rider will win despite what hand he is dealt, as we saw today.
A meet rider will disappoint you in the long run.

lsosa54 · 06-10-2012, 12:00 PM

Trot: I agree in some of these big races that a jock can make a difference but I think circumstances and luck are usually the main culprits.

On the win side, I saw only 3 horses that could win: Dullahan, Paynter, and Union Rags, based on figs.

I added two that I thought could place: Street Life and Atigun.

I guess I should have played the tri and super? My Paynter-Atigun box looked good there for about 8 seconds!

Listen, I think all jocks make mistakes. LeParoux is a fine young rider and Johhnie V and Smith are Hall of Fame types.

Think about how Smith feels? He led 95% of the triple crown and didn't get one win! He's won a ton of races going to the left handed whip and yesterday it probably cost him the win. I'm sure he saw Atigun looming and probably went left handed and it let Union sneak by.

Johnnie V got caught up a couple of times and got lucky when the rail opened up. Great rider with some luck.

Did LeParoux move too soon with Atigun or was the horse just not good enough? He didn't have the figs for me to win so his hanging is not shocking.

What about Dullahan? Do we say that Romans and Castellano are awful (they are not) or was he the most ridiculous favorite in a big race. Yes, he had the figs, but had NEVER won on dirt. Maybe he's best on poly or turf?

While I agree that a top jock helps, I think you're being too hard on LeParoux. I don't consider Gutierrez a great jock but he did fine on IHA. Chaos is always something we deal with.

By the way, I think Desormeaux when mentally and physically right, can ride with anyone.

trotman · 06-11-2012, 04:41 PM

Isosa54 with all due respect. Johnny V is a money rider as was his agent Angel Cordero and I think that is a big factor. Look at some of the races he rides and you see a smoother rendition of Cordero. These boys never lost the hunger to win and for my money that's the rider I want. Julien Leparoux will win a ton of races as did Kent Desormeaux, but outside intervention will be their undoing. As for Mario Gutierrez being a great rider, cut him some slack this kid will stay hungry and will surprize many. That's what I want in a rider, just give me the chance, they did and he delivered. And for the little chances that he had he is far out in front of Leparoux and the famed Kent Desormeaux. He delivered when he had no chance in peoples minds, just like all the money riders do. I have always said that luck is the residue of design that's why win or lose I won't get upset on a bad beat/loss and won't give credit to a win to luck. Partner love reading your posts.

lsosa54 · 06-11-2012, 09:52 PM

Speaking of great jocks, I started getting into racing right after an ex boss took me to the Turf Club at Santa Anita closing day of the 1987 meet. One of my favorite jocks was Pincay, who would carry tiring horses across the finish line. Got to meet him in the winners circle a couple of times and shook his hand. Really good guy.

On the Belmont telecast, I'm watching his son, very well spoken, interview his Dad. Got a real kick out of that. I had never really sat down to listen to Laffit Jr.

trotman · 06-12-2012, 07:03 PM

Isosa54 I knew with you the cream would rise to the top. Pincay was a great rider when all was said and done lifetime a 20% winner. Braulio Baeza another tough jockey that won at a 18% clip. Manny Ycaza another with a win % of 22 %. These jocks stayed hungry. You think handicapping is tough now back then the jock had a lot to do with it. Don't take my word for it but if you ever get the chance to talk with Cordero, Pincay or any of those jocks they will tell you they watched Avelino Gomez, they idolized him. Because of work papers and other jocks complaining they sent him packing from Hialeah because he was Cuban and was winning everything, sour grapes. Thanks for the trip down memory lane.

lsosa54 · 06-12-2012, 10:05 PM

Trot: You do realize that you are talking to a countryman? Avelino and I were both born in Havana, except he showed up 26 years before me. 24% win rate and 4081 races won up at Woodbine. I was not into racing when the accident that took him occurred in the 1980 Canadian Oaks.

The Avelino Gomez Memorial Award is still given out - Ransammy won it last year. There is a life size statue of him at Woodbine. Ted has probably seen it.

trotman · 06-12-2012, 10:30 PM

Isosa54 partner stay proud he was one of the all time greats. When someone asks me about great riders I will always mention El Senoir. In the series Luck when they showed the scene of Ronnie Jenkins (Gary Stevens) putting the field to sleep on the front end it brought a tear to my eye because how many times I saw Avelino do that, he was a master. Angel Cordero said he was his hero in an interview one time and the broadcast crew had no idea who he was referring to and because they cut him short you could tell that Cordero was upset, the big smile of his was gone.

06-09-2012, 08:07 PM	#1
trotman Grade 1 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 259	Belmont and true money riders The Belmont today was exactly a money riders race and proves to me that owners and trainers don't know everything. Michael Matz rides a everyday rider in J. Leparoux who I have thought as very suspect as a stakes rider and it cost him the races that counts. Kent Desormeaux,, and Julien Leparoux are way overrated as riders. Did I bet no, did I have an opinion yes Union Rags to win. A great rider will win despite what hand he is dealt, as we saw today. A meet rider will disappoint you in the long run. __________________ "Success consists of simply getting back up one more time than you fall"

06-10-2012, 12:00 PM	#2
lsosa54 Grade 1 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: NYC and San Diego Posts: 627	Trot: I agree in some of these big races that a jock can make a difference but I think circumstances and luck are usually the main culprits. On the win side, I saw only 3 horses that could win: Dullahan, Paynter, and Union Rags, based on figs. I added two that I thought could place: Street Life and Atigun. I guess I should have played the tri and super? My Paynter-Atigun box looked good there for about 8 seconds! Listen, I think all jocks make mistakes. LeParoux is a fine young rider and Johhnie V and Smith are Hall of Fame types. Think about how Smith feels? He led 95% of the triple crown and didn't get one win! He's won a ton of races going to the left handed whip and yesterday it probably cost him the win. I'm sure he saw Atigun looming and probably went left handed and it let Union sneak by. Johnnie V got caught up a couple of times and got lucky when the rail opened up. Great rider with some luck. Did LeParoux move too soon with Atigun or was the horse just not good enough? He didn't have the figs for me to win so his hanging is not shocking. What about Dullahan? Do we say that Romans and Castellano are awful (they are not) or was he the most ridiculous favorite in a big race. Yes, he had the figs, but had NEVER won on dirt. Maybe he's best on poly or turf? While I agree that a top jock helps, I think you're being too hard on LeParoux. I don't consider Gutierrez a great jock but he did fine on IHA. Chaos is always something we deal with. By the way, I think Desormeaux when mentally and physically right, can ride with anyone. Last edited by lsosa54; 06-10-2012 at 12:02 PM.

06-11-2012, 04:41 PM	#3
trotman Grade 1 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 259	Isosa54 with all due respect. Johnny V is a money rider as was his agent Angel Cordero and I think that is a big factor. Look at some of the races he rides and you see a smoother rendition of Cordero. These boys never lost the hunger to win and for my money that's the rider I want. Julien Leparoux will win a ton of races as did Kent Desormeaux, but outside intervention will be their undoing. As for Mario Gutierrez being a great rider, cut him some slack this kid will stay hungry and will surprize many. That's what I want in a rider, just give me the chance, they did and he delivered. And for the little chances that he had he is far out in front of Leparoux and the famed Kent Desormeaux. He delivered when he had no chance in peoples minds, just like all the money riders do. I have always said that luck is the residue of design that's why win or lose I won't get upset on a bad beat/loss and won't give credit to a win to luck. Partner love reading your posts. __________________ "Success consists of simply getting back up one more time than you fall"

06-12-2012, 07:03 PM	#5
trotman Grade 1 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 259	Isosa54 I knew with you the cream would rise to the top. Pincay was a great rider when all was said and done lifetime a 20% winner. Braulio Baeza another tough jockey that won at a 18% clip. Manny Ycaza another with a win % of 22 %. These jocks stayed hungry. You think handicapping is tough now back then the jock had a lot to do with it. Don't take my word for it but if you ever get the chance to talk with Cordero, Pincay or any of those jocks they will tell you they watched Avelino Gomez, they idolized him. Because of work papers and other jocks complaining they sent him packing from Hialeah because he was Cuban and was winning everything, sour grapes. Thanks for the trip down memory lane. __________________ "Success consists of simply getting back up one more time than you fall"

06-12-2012, 10:30 PM	#7
trotman Grade 1 Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 259	Isosa54 partner stay proud he was one of the all time greats. When someone asks me about great riders I will always mention El Senoir. In the series Luck when they showed the scene of Ronnie Jenkins (Gary Stevens) putting the field to sleep on the front end it brought a tear to my eye because how many times I saw Avelino do that, he was a master. Angel Cordero said he was his hero in an interview one time and the broadcast crew had no idea who he was referring to and because they cut him short you could tell that Cordero was upset, the big smile of his was gone. __________________ "Success consists of simply getting back up one more time than you fall"

06-11-2012, 09:52 PM	#4
lsosa54 Grade 1 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: NYC and San Diego Posts: 627	Speaking of great jocks, I started getting into racing right after an ex boss took me to the Turf Club at Santa Anita closing day of the 1987 meet. One of my favorite jocks was Pincay, who would carry tiring horses across the finish line. Got to meet him in the winners circle a couple of times and shook his hand. Really good guy. On the Belmont telecast, I'm watching his son, very well spoken, interview his Dad. Got a real kick out of that. I had never really sat down to listen to Laffit Jr.

06-12-2012, 10:05 PM	#6
lsosa54 Grade 1 Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: NYC and San Diego Posts: 627	Trot: You do realize that you are talking to a countryman? Avelino and I were both born in Havana, except he showed up 26 years before me. 24% win rate and 4081 races won up at Woodbine. I was not into racing when the accident that took him occurred in the 1980 Canadian Oaks. The Avelino Gomez Memorial Award is still given out - Ransammy won it last year. There is a life size statue of him at Woodbine. Ted has probably seen it.