Pace and Cap - Sartin Methodology & The Match Up - View Single Post

Ted Craven · 01-21-2019, 12:12 PM

Folks, I think we can all agree that this site specializes in discussion and resources related to the Sartin Methodology and The Matchup as taught by Jim Bradshaw and his subsequent students.

On the one hand, it would be out of place if someone started posting detailed discussion and enquiry about the intricacies of HTR, or Jcapper or Black Magic - all of these, and other software, surely reputable and successful tools in the hands of diligent practitioners. Simply because: there are dedicated websites for these other tools where BETTER advice can be had. There would be no point asking non-users of these tools here for advice, and perhaps this observation seems trite and self-evident.

On the other hand, if ever there was an individual more open to researching and testing WHAT WORKS in the process of analysis and betting on horse races - it would probably be Howard Sartin. At one point in the Methodology history, there were no TPR figures - then there were. And there was no Deceleration analysis - then there was. There was no downloading from online data sources - then there was. Etc, etc.

Then Dr Sartin stopped his work. Then it continued again. Some improvements (IMO) from Guy Wadsworth's Speculator which Sartin was at odds with. Then, in RDSS, there was support for tote board data analysis - not previously (much) a part of formal Sartin teachings. Then there were Workout Patterns and speed ratings - not previously a part of Sartin teachings. Then there were 'moves patterns' during segments of a race courtesy of Jim Lehane - not previously a part of Sartin teachings. NewPace, a concept from Dave Schwartz was added in. Then figures available from BRISnet (ProfitLine, soon BRIS Prime Power). Concepts such as high-weights in handicaps, average Speed Ratings (CSR) and more.

These newer additions are in use and discussed (some more, some less) elsewhere by others who don't even know about the Sartin Methodology, some of them quite successful, others just theorists. It can be debated (in a different thread if needed) the utility of these additions - whether they are helpful or distractions - and I accept complete responsibility for their presence in RDSS and discussion here about them, and for what will come.

But the question is - are these newer things (new since Sartin's day) a part of the Sartin Methodology? And deserving of discussion at PaceandCap? Or only because I said so?

I ask this question sincerely! There are a number of erudite and passionate researchers out there dedicated to taking money out of a horse race by numerous 'non-Sartin' means. Do we forego discussion and knowledge of those ideas just because 'it wasn't invented here'? And what are the boundaries of the Sartin Methodology? Can it ever evolve, if it wasn't written about in the the Follow Ups?

Or do we only want the 'good' or 'reputable' 'outside' research? How do we tell what's what?

Here's what I've got so far. I am NOT a good historian or consumer of 'system mills' - offerings of software or pen and paper methods guaranteeing riches for $49.99. But if it has the name RPM on it - by fiat, I am declaring it worthless!

Damn...I just lost 2 more paragraphs of this post to a keystroke mishap

Anyway ... the gist was: I think there is much respectable research and ideas out there which are fuel for discussion here about concepts and ideas which can help someone enjoy and even be profitable at this game (especially ideas and tools which help turn good analysis into good bets). I welcome those ideas here and would like to participate in some of them and learn from all of them.

Conley might be asking: how to tell what is respectable and what is trash, when it's ALL new to him? I think it's a fair question. But I do also think that it demonstrates lack of attention (even disrespect) to ask questions like that without having started to delve into the primary offerings of THIS community of knowledge FIRST.

So how about this: after mastering RDSS and its implementation of the Sartin Methodology (and after giving it a REAL go) or refreshing your knowledge about and possibly resurrecting the older software you knew and loved -- then it's OK to ask about this and that other system priced at $49.99 and promising riches.

Ted

01-21-2019, 12:12 PM	#10
Ted Craven Grade 1 Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Nanaimo, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 8,854	Folks, I think we can all agree that this site specializes in discussion and resources related to the Sartin Methodology and The Matchup as taught by Jim Bradshaw and his subsequent students. On the one hand, it would be out of place if someone started posting detailed discussion and enquiry about the intricacies of HTR, or Jcapper or Black Magic - all of these, and other software, surely reputable and successful tools in the hands of diligent practitioners. Simply because: there are dedicated websites for these other tools where BETTER advice can be had. There would be no point asking non-users of these tools here for advice, and perhaps this observation seems trite and self-evident. On the other hand, if ever there was an individual more open to researching and testing WHAT WORKS in the process of analysis and betting on horse races - it would probably be Howard Sartin. At one point in the Methodology history, there were no TPR figures - then there were. And there was no Deceleration analysis - then there was. There was no downloading from online data sources - then there was. Etc, etc. Then Dr Sartin stopped his work. Then it continued again. Some improvements (IMO) from Guy Wadsworth's Speculator which Sartin was at odds with. Then, in RDSS, there was support for tote board data analysis - not previously (much) a part of formal Sartin teachings. Then there were Workout Patterns and speed ratings - not previously a part of Sartin teachings. Then there were 'moves patterns' during segments of a race courtesy of Jim Lehane - not previously a part of Sartin teachings. NewPace, a concept from Dave Schwartz was added in. Then figures available from BRISnet (ProfitLine, soon BRIS Prime Power). Concepts such as high-weights in handicaps, average Speed Ratings (CSR) and more. These newer additions are in use and discussed (some more, some less) elsewhere by others who don't even know about the Sartin Methodology, some of them quite successful, others just theorists. It can be debated (in a different thread if needed) the utility of these additions - whether they are helpful or distractions - and I accept complete responsibility for their presence in RDSS and discussion here about them, and for what will come. But the question is - are these newer things (new since Sartin's day) a part of the Sartin Methodology? And deserving of discussion at PaceandCap? Or only because I said so? I ask this question sincerely! There are a number of erudite and passionate researchers out there dedicated to taking money out of a horse race by numerous 'non-Sartin' means. Do we forego discussion and knowledge of those ideas just because 'it wasn't invented here'? And what are the boundaries of the Sartin Methodology? Can it ever evolve, if it wasn't written about in the the Follow Ups? Or do we only want the 'good' or 'reputable' 'outside' research? How do we tell what's what? Here's what I've got so far. I am NOT a good historian or consumer of 'system mills' - offerings of software or pen and paper methods guaranteeing riches for $49.99. But if it has the name RPM on it - by fiat, I am declaring it worthless! Damn...I just lost 2 more paragraphs of this post to a keystroke mishap Anyway ... the gist was: I think there is much respectable research and ideas out there which are fuel for discussion here about concepts and ideas which can help someone enjoy and even be profitable at this game (especially ideas and tools which help turn good analysis into good bets). I welcome those ideas here and would like to participate in some of them and learn from all of them. Conley might be asking: how to tell what is respectable and what is trash, when it's ALL new to him? I think it's a fair question. But I do also think that it demonstrates lack of attention (even disrespect) to ask questions like that without having started to delve into the primary offerings of THIS community of knowledge FIRST. So how about this: after mastering RDSS and its implementation of the Sartin Methodology (and after giving it a REAL go) or refreshing your knowledge about and possibly resurrecting the older software you knew and loved -- then it's OK to ask about this and that other system priced at $49.99 and promising riches. Ted __________________ RDSS - Racing Decision Support System™ Last edited by Ted Craven; 01-21-2019 at 12:15 PM.