Pace and Cap  - Sartin Methodology & The Match Up

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-   -   Pace Line Section Sartin Guidelines (http://paceandcap.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10370)

Bill V. 03-03-2016 11:21 AM

Pace Line Section Sartin Guidelines
 
2 Attachment(s)
work in progress - check here often...

Here are some recommend reading options.
These are long post from the teaching 101 area
Please read these with an open mind. The posters are offering us
valuable information in a friendly Pace and Cap manner.
They are presented here to teach us how to win.

Bill

Attachment 39647

Plus, Plus within a zero and zero + (+) 0
http://paceandcap.com/forums/showpos...73&postcount=1

Best Of Last 3
Follow Up Issue #81 page 1 paragraph 2
Thank you to Tim LT1.

Attachment 39648

more to come

Mitch44 03-03-2016 12:29 PM

Great post Bill, I concur 100%.
Mitch44

Lt1 03-03-2016 01:10 PM

I would also suggest Follow Up #81 page 1 paragraph 2.

Bill V. 03-03-2016 05:16 PM

from a PM
 
.

Many people, never understood the concept of always using the last line. Before one can even get to using the last line, or any other line, they have to understand that they should only be using “+” or “(+)” lines. AND, they have to understand what a + or (+) line is! You don’t use the last line when the horse ran around the racetrack “dead last”! However, if the last line is a + or (+) line, then it should be used. Of course Doc always went on to explain situations when the last “bad” line is an “unless” line, in which case it is OK to go back ONE LINE! I mean, this is not brain surgery!!

Even when Doc shifted to using best of last 3 distance/surface, he told people to pay attention to the fact that he “very rarely” went back more than 3 lines.

Bill's thoughts ..
And I replied And If line 2 is also a non comparable, "unless" line than you go to line 3

Mitch44 03-03-2016 06:18 PM

PM: I go back to the early 90's with this stuff, the reason for the last line was to rate it as it was an indication of form I.e. improving or declining, as far as "+' or "o" race. No idiot would use the last line if " when the horse ran around the racetrack "dead last"."

Just because its a + line does it mean that it is the pace line to use. It better be at a comparable dis.,surface etc. Today with the advance of RDSS every line is rated in TPR, Tot. Energy, Pace of the race and Preceptor therefore IMO making the old + & O of races is obsolete, for me that is. Yea the program even rates those ugly races where the horse finished "dead last." ha ha A plus line in the last race or any line must be put in context to todays conditions and surface to be a useable line.

Depending on what format I'm looking at I also use Speed Rating for improving and declining form but the tools in RDSS mention above are better and all done for you, unlike the early 90's when this all had to be done by hand.

The Doc also went back past line 3 if they weren't at a comparable dis, sur. etc. In the above post, Bill's thoughts. . . . has it correct above and I'll go back further depending on what's in the horse's chart. Note: see Bill V. post above Pace line selection. . . . . from SportStat where the last line was no more predicable than line 4, Follow Up # 81,pg.1,par.#2

Galen G. Mitchell
AKA Mitch44

Bill V. 03-03-2016 06:57 PM

Thank you Tim
Your suggestion will added
I added my thoughts . The stats are based on using the last line with no consideration of being of a comparable distance surface or competition level
This is why one of the first steps in phase 1 is to run the numbers on each horse last line . The winner will be amount the top 5 TPR almost ( nothing works always )
every time . Now once you have the top 5 off the last line Now lines can be looked at for the line that is the best of the last 3
Bill

Mark 03-04-2016 10:35 PM

Do it your way!
 
Bill,
This is your thread and you have long experience with TPR or Phase I. It is your handicapping program of choice. You can educate from experience which is very gracious of you. This stuff takes time!!. Some of us, self included have gone in different directions or altered the strict interpretation of Doc and Jim's work. That's good as we need to make some money doing this or it is just gambling and we are all at liberty to put our own experience to work for us. However, I was thinking that your efforts are more directed to new users or those that have never had much experience with the Sartin Methodology or TPR. I commend you highly giving of your time and knowledge. Thank you!!

barryt 03-10-2020 03:27 PM

Hi Bill Ive been away for many years and just bgetting back after re reading Pace makes the Race.
Ive read now that instead of using L.A.S.T , the best of last three (relavent) should be used. i.e. if todays race is a dirt sprint the best of last three dirt sprints should be used, but only if its last is not a SNAIL. have I got that right?
a second question involves 3 yrolds and especially now with newly turned ones. 2 year olds grow up a lot from 2 to 3 and continue to grow up until they mature around breeders Cup. Does the Sartin Methodology have a formula for assigning grow up points to TPR . i have been using Quirin style adjustments of 3 speed points per month for 2 yrolds and 2 points per month for 3 yrolds til June then 1 point per month. I double this for TPR assigning half the additional points to both EPR and FFR.
I relize that some times it makes for ridiculous ratings ,so when it does i just fudge them to make them realistic e.g. . im not going to add 5 points to a 110 EPR.

can you help with this or direct me to the relevant F.U.
tx
barryt

Bill V. 03-11-2020 07:10 AM

advanced
 
Hi
There is not too much info about phase 1 TPR in the followups
The original PMTR was written by Doc and Dick Schmidt The book was to be
read and followed.
There is nothing I know of about such adjustments. For 2 and 3 year olds
The numbers one gets form entering the last line of each horse give you a base
for which to judge how far back you can go for a pace line.
Always start with most recent paceline and then work down from there.

Mitch44 03-11-2020 09:38 AM

barryt:


In reference to your second question the answer is that, no Sartin did not have a formula for assigning growth points to TPR or any other factor.

Your on the correct path in using Quirin adjustments. This is what I use and use either 1 or 1.5 for those adjustments. I use it now and than in certain situations.

Its tricky to use and not all that accurate because each horse's growth pattern is different, or in other words some don't progress until age 5 etc. I have found also that like humans horses grow in spurts or in other words all in a short time span such as only late in the year and not gradually throughout the year. Vino Rosso is a perfect example that won the BC Classic in that he really matured late in the year.

So these projections can be very iffy and they do have merit,but we don't know precisely when that will occur. Many never progress because they have no inherit class to begin with therefore I would caution against as its just a crapshoot. I do it now and than under certain circumstances but not for all horses or every situation. Someone once said "it works when it works and it don't when it doesn't.


The truth also is that form is very hard to predict and if we could do that with precision the game would be dead, so it is with projections. This also includes projection of a horse from a sprint to a route where Sartin does have a formula. Its more accurate to extract than to project anything.


Mitch44


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