Be carefull of what you say on DRF site
 

This is how bogus the DRF site is. They place stories out there and welcome
persons to post a reply. If you don't say the right things they delete it. One
thing you do not go against is NYRA, speaking bad of them gets you a quick boot. Though knock Andy Beyer and they let him twist in the wind a bit, makes
you wonder. Don't get the wrong idea Beyer and his numbers are seriously
flawed and it figures that rag would sell you out for a dime and over a number
of years they left it open for Andy to defend himself which he said why bother.
Which leads me to my next rant. If which I believe this Sartin Methodology is
a true understanding of pace then why add this New Pace idea which to me
is bogus. What was left to us by Doc, Jim The Hat, Maul, Brohammer and please never forget Pizzolla, that's it period. Read between the lines like you
do selecting your pace lines. They all give credit to Taulbot for his idea's and he said it's all in front of you, why make it a problem. We are our own worst
enemy, something like this cut and dried we try and make something bigger
out of it. Does bragging rights to the Derby or whatever race make you king,
I think not. I do not use RDSS but I apprieciate the people here, what I can say is that after a certain time period utilizing this New Pace will not show
anything on your bottom line, at least not in the black.

I am always amazed that the biggest detractors of NewPace are people who have never used it.

Dave in my opinion it is what it is. New Pace, Old Pace, Pace is Pace period. Inquiring minds get into trouble, there is nothing hidden yet in most the thirst
for that holy grail will get the better of them and you will be there to make sure you get your cut. Bravo to you but this old sage has been around for a long time and there is nothing new to pace. Like Beyer's twist it enough it will eventually fit. Like anything else it could prove positive in the beginning but like most it will end up as wasted time and money. This is my opinion and don't get your back up because if you are as steadfast in your opinion of New
Pace then you really have nothing to defend, proof is always in the pudding. The gentlemen that I've refered to as the beginning their idea's have stood the test of time and in all reality many of us will be on the other side of the sod before anyone could label your idea's as a breakthrough or not. So my friend it becomes a moot point. Enjoy your Memorial Day Weekend.

I myself am not able to say from personal experience whether NewPace will add to or subtract from my bottom line in the long term, because I do not use it regularly enough or over a sufficient volume of races.

But I do respect those who roll up their sleeves and do the work to accumulate this info, and especially those who choose to bet real money on it. I appreciate the hard work Mike S, Pino, Bill Lyster and rmath recently have put into studying NewPace: http://paceandcap.com/forums/showthread.php?p=80010 (MikeSal's workups on MNR and WO 2012 seasons using NewPace).

As to the contributions of Taulbot, Mahl, Bradshaw and Howard Sartin (and not forgetting Pizzolla) - well, obviously you get no complaint from me as to the brilliance and sufficiency of their work. However, I guess it's a good thing Doc Sartin chose to not consider that Huey Mahl or Ray Taulbot were all there was to know about handicapping, and instead chose to investigate if there were new and interesting things yet undiscovered in horse racing - and to teach others. And Sartin begat Bradshaw, Pizzolla, Brohamer, Schmidt, Purdy, Hambleton, and - dare I say it - even had a certain influence on Schwartz ...

As for the DRF site and Andy Beyer, I'll have to get back to you ...

Ted

I strongly disagree, i hunt for longshots on a daily basis and New Pace has handed me some beauties, mind you i only play Woodbine. I don't know what your basing your opinions on or what tracks you have tested, but New Pace has found some gems that i wouldn't have found normally. I have only been using it for 3 weeks but the $77 investment has been returned to me 20 times over, as a matter of fact it gave me the confidence to bet 2 winning bombers today at Woodbine in race 7 and 8. RDSS had the winners as well but sometimes i need a little push to make that bet, so i use both in conjunction with each other. I have more confidence in RDSS when it comes to Tri's and Supers, (RDSS hit another beauty today in R8) but i am glad i added New Pace to RDSS and find it a valuable addition. I have a good understanding of what running styles work at Woodbine in certain races, and New Pace has been a big help in pin-pointing winners.

I have been keeping daily records of New Pace's results at Woodbine and so far i am impressed, i really scratch my head when i hear someone knocking it, maybe at other tracks it isn't as successful. I love RDSS and it will always be my go to system, but when used in conjunction with New Pace it is providing me with some great results.

Thanks to Ted and Dave, i am so glad that the calculations are automated in RDSS, it's a huge timesaver. I had a great day today at Woodbine.

In any field of endeavors, the room will always be filled with distractions, naysayers, and ardent staunch supporters of one side or the other. I can respect ones strong support for Howard Sartin and the early pioneers of Pirco and the methodology. As one who has followed the methodology since the early 1990's, I can say that Yes, the work of Sartin, Bradshaw, Brohamer, and others can get you to the "promised land" depending pb your discipline and wagering methods.

Sartin always strived to improve his programs, using new math (chaos) with the never ending goals of staying ahead of those who shamelessly copied his cutting edge ideas and pace factors and called them their own. Sartin would have improve his work continously..

First, Hoof, thanks for that experienced-based appraisal.

Absolutely!

No "daring" about it. My first real winning year came as a direct result of Howard's stuff. That is why I give him credit as the true father of pace handicapping.

Over the years a lot of people have enjoyed beating Howard (and his legacy) up pretty badly. Believe me when I say that I have heard all the stories. And some of them may well be true - he was not perfect. But I will tell you what he was - he was an original thinker; an idea man of the first magnitude.

Another thing about Howard was that he raised people up. Ted named just a few of them. PIRCO in those early days was quite a place. I don't know about the REAL EARLY days as I did not enter the Sartin arena until 1987 but from 1987 to 1993 or so I made some wonderful friends in that group.

We were all successes, to one degree or another. I am not aware of a single one that has not given Howard Sartin great credit at one time or another.

Howard once paid me a great compliment by describing me as one of the only original thinkers in the game. Permit me to tell you what an original thinker does: He begins with what he knows/believes to be true and then adds to it.

What does he add? He adds what everyone else has done before him. Then he mixes it up into new combinations. Finally, he tries to add something of his own to the mix. The ultimate result is something not so much NEW as NEW-er.

If you think about it, that is exactly what Howard did.

He did not invent pace handicapping, any more than Newton invented gravity. Like Newton, Sartin explained pace in terms we could understand.

This allowed pace handicapping to grow. Over the years there were many pieces of software written by "Sartin People." Some were truly amateurish in terms of ergonomics, etc. A few didn't work out so well. Such it is with ideas.

But some of them - and perhaps your list would be different than mine - were absolute killer programs.

Looking back on my history with Howard - and I always called him that - never "Doc" as some people did; I recall many Saturday evening phone calls from him. Not once a week but certainly once every month or so (for several years). LOL - It was almost a game. He'd ask me what I was working on then he would tell me how he had thought of that before or always wanted to try it.

I used to kid him about the fact that having a passing thought on an idea did not actually give him ownership of it. I would remind him that it was the successful implementation of an idea that really earns one the credit.

One of my regrets is that I was never able to share NewPace with him; to collaborate with him on it. I firmly believe that he would have loved its simplicity. It's ability to come up with amazing pace scenarios without actually using any pace ratings could very much have determined the direction of one last Sartin software product. I would have loved to write it. (I almost did write a software product FOR Howard once. That is another story, for another time.)

My point in writing all this is that we are ALL "children of the same branch of the handicapping tree" and at its root is Doctor Howard Sartin.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Hoof 11 congrats to you, 3 weeks and your off and running. That is some kind of sample size. I have no bones to pick with RDSS because it is a methodology that has stood the test of time. You only play Woodbine and now I see where your coming from, 3 weeks, 1 track I can't see this ending up well, and it won't be RDSS because it is the proven entity

My point in writing all this is that we are ALL "children of the same branch of the handicapping tree" and at its root is Doctor Howard Sartin.

Dave, no argument from me.

Trotman,

If his three weeks were atypical, I would agree with you. However, there are MANY players - I have a whole stable of them on Skype - showing promising results.

As has been posted in other places by some pretty serious RDSS researchers, it DOES work; it IS working.

I will tell you one thing that Howard stood for: seeing things as the really are.

I have several well-meant suggestions for you:
1. I suggest to you that the fact that you don't WANT NewPace to work does not mean it doesn't work.

2. I would suggest that it probably DOES mean that it won't work for you.

3. I suggest that you not waste your money on NewPace for the reason stated above.


Considering all that has transpired regarding NewPace on this forum in the past couple of months, especially the work of several of your fine researchers, I can finally answer the question that Ted asked me at Saratoga about the relationship between RDSS and me: I can finally say that I am pleased with the relationship. At Saratoga last year I was not so sure. Now I am.

To that end, I would like to offer a Memorial Day discount on NewPace to all RDSS users/members. Here is how it works:

1. If you do not have NewPace Advanced, you should. Price is $47.

2. If you do not have NewPace, you should have it AND NewPace Advanced. Price is $177.

Here is a coupon code good for 40% off either product!
RDSS-001

That means that you can get the NewPace bundle for just $70.20. That is less than the price of NewPace by itself!

If you do not have NewPace Advanced, you can get it for just $28.20.

Spend the money, get the whole story.

In addition, next week I will be scheduling a Free NewPace Advanced Discoveries Workshop. It isn't a big deal - not a lot of new stuff. But I am going to share with everyone how we are expanding it in HSH. Much of these enhancements are easily duplicated in RDSS.

These are not so much "enhancements" as strategies.

Owning NewPace Advanced is your ticket into this workshop.

Go ring the cash register for me. You will be glad you did.


Dave

PS: Coupon Expires Monday at Midnight.

PPS: If any of you purchased NewPace or NewPace Advanced within the last 72 hours, call us and we will issue you a coupon for future purchases equal to what you would have saved.

Again, i disagree. I have learned the hard way that you can't trust old running lines, and for the most part i use my own angles early in the season. I have spent my time observing the outcome of RDSS and New Pace and it has been spotty early on, as expected. But i must say i was pleasantly surprised at the outcome of both systems and it didn't take me long to have enough confidence to start laying down money. The more time that passes i am finding both systems are having better results, i fully expected this with the addition of recent running lines. I still use my own handicapping methods in conjunction with the two systems and at times i disagree with their results, sometimes i am right, sometimes i am wrong. But to say it won't end up well for me is a load, you say it won't be RDSS that will be my undoing, it will be New Pace, if you actually had any experience with the two systems you would know more often than not they come up with similar results. In the end it will be my own decisions that will sink me, not RDSS or New Pace. I am not the kind of person that strokes Ted's or Dave's ego, i do my homework and if i find the system holds value than i will share my thoughts, if i find the system sucks i toss it and move on, without leaving cynical thoughts on the internet.

Dave.... i will be in contact with you for the upgrade.

Have a great long weekend guys

Honestly dont see any connection at all with Sartin Methodology and New Pace,actually the Phase 1 numbers can be used in the same manner.

No, they can't.

Phase 1 "numbers" are about velocity. NewPace is about "running style." The two are completely different.

You can certainly try it that way, but it will not work.

Phase 1
 

Phase 1 is an important tool and a cornerstone of the Sartin Methodology
Phase 1 involves naming running styles, making adjustments to the raw
early pace and final fraction ratings to arrive at a total pace rating.
Its also mentioned that a first fraction pace rating could also be calculated but was not advisable for some to explore.All of Phase 1 is fed but a proper use of pace line selection. The last race is the race. You don't have to use the last race, but the last -most recent paceline must be calculated for every horse jn the race
A track profile and model are to be created and both early and late
parameters are soon apperant as to what is needed at specific tracks
The Phase 1 profile also is a aid in track specific adjustments.
Phase 1 is not about the total pace rating alone. Properly using Phase 1
demands a balance of the top 3 early and late pace ratings. In the original
Pace Makes The Race Doc gets into a deceration forumla based on the relation to the EPR and FFR rating.

Good for you shoeless I agree that Phase 1 is comparable

Bill

Shoeless and Bill V I am in total agreement with you on Phase 1

Bill and Trotman thanks at least two of you agree.


Bill nice anaylsis of Phase 1 numbers

First I wanted to thanks Ted for putting "New Pace" in RDSS...and secondly my question is to the others who don't like New Pace..."NOBODY PUT A GUN TO YOUR HEAD TO USE NEW PACE...YOU DON"T LIKE..DON"T USE IT!!"
Some of you have Lot's of time on your hand after a losing day and you go around knocking others people's work. I lose too but I don't do that. Get a life!
First-of-all the poster does not even use RDSS nor New Pace...am I suppose to use him opinion or listen to what he has to say?!...you make me laugh.

If your referring to my post I didnt say New Pace was good or bad just dont
think it has anything to do with The Sartin Methodology.If it works for you that's great.

would you
 

Hello Bladerunner

Please address your displeasure with the people who you are addressing
in a private email.

Thanks
Bill

NOo it's not you! It's for the person who started this thread.

No problem just wanted to clear it up

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for the diversity of your comments! And after all, it is diversity of opinion which makes betting on a horse race possible.

I believe we have had sufficient comment on whether NewPace does or does not work, both from people who do and do not actually use it.

People are welcomed to respond to Dave's offer, or not - and I thank him for making it. For the record, I am making no time-frame commitments to updating NewPace in RDSS2, although I will eventually.

I agree with Bill V's advice, to us all.

Ted

The thread starter openly critisize 'New Pace' without using it, so I posted here. But I will take your advice and do likewise.

I think the game is always evolving and changing and we should always welcome new ideas,concepts and ways to make things better.It doesn't always work but it leads to bigger and better things.Let's try Dave's NP and see if it helps us in our bottom line.Then and only then can we make our judgment on New Pace...

All registered owners of NewPace or NewPace Advanced should have received an email with a link to this morning's free, 90-minute What to Do After NewPace seminar.

This seminar was primarily aimed at HSH users but there was plenty of discussion there for RDSS users and even paper-and-pencil guys.

If you have not received it, please email me directly and I will send you the email again.


Regards,
Dave Schwartz

Yep..... another crappy day for New Pace at Woodbine. :rolleyes:

RDSS is really starting to heat up.

I am assuming you had a GOOD day, right?

(Don't forget to watch that video from your email.)

Yes, it was a good day. I just emailed you, i didn't receive the link.

And did you receive my email back? If not, I am either going to SPAM or am somehow blocked.

Works for me david!

Saludos!
Ignacio

Got it, thanks.

On Friday nite , there was a glimmer of things changing for Advanced New Pace

So I played a little on Sat nite....I had a gut feeling

Race 2

6-1 exacta $782
In this race the 3 was out on eliminations

Race 10

1-7 exacta $234




Now these wont reflect in my MNR study as of RDSS is using original New Pace

Mike,

YOW, your timing is impeccable. Congratulations, nice hits! In Race 2, that #6 horse was pretty obscure, wasn't it :eek:

I myself had a nice calamari stir fry and a 2009 Alsatian Pino Gris. Not saying I wouldn't have preferred $1000 of exactas at MNR though ...

cheers,

Ted

Actually Ted......

RDSS NP had the 6 as a tie.....I just saw it when Pino sent me the summary sheet..

But yes , its a horse that I believe no software will come up with besides New Pace...

maybe its not the most consistent approach around but when stuff like this comes in...the smile is BIG!!!!

Mike

line 1
 

Mike If you just use the last paceline for every horse - Of course who would do this and then bet it? This does show that it is possible to get crazy results with any software .
The exacta is in the top 4 BLBL on RDSS Top 2 VDC BIG SMILE Exacta 6-1
Attachment 27003

Hello Mike,

Great Plays...congrats to you.

I am posting the NP screens from the adjusted SR point of view. In both races the 6 horse in R2 and the 7 horse in race 10 are the SW (swing) horses. In advanced NP the swing horse has been discontinued...I am a little surprised because I was tracking ITM results for the SW horse. I am seeing favorable results but with small samples. I haven't yet looked at the advanced workshop video so I really don't know.

I back-boarded or red- boarded (whatever you call it.) the races and in R2 I could justify picking a P/L for the #6 but in race 10 I would have never included the 1 horse....Could you explain your rationale for choosing the 1 horse.

Thanks,

Ernie

Ernie...

I've create Dave's Advanced New Pace into an Excel Spreadsheet
That had the #1 as a contender not RDSS

Mike

Ok..thanks....I just got motivated to look at the Advanced NP video.

Ernie

That's awesome Mike, glad to hear you cashed.

I haven't had a chance to watch the new video but that is disappointing, no more swing horse? I agree with Silent Run, at Woodbine the swing horse hits at least once a day at a really big price, some days it hits 3 winners. I as well have been tracking the swing horse for ITM finishes and it cannot be ignored, at Woodbine at least.

The one thing i take from New Pace is that on occasion it produces obscure selections, a horse that RDSS doesn't have (maybe because of my own paceline selection) and leads me to have a second look at that particular horse. I wouldn't have come up with that particular horse with my own thought process, but at times there is something positive there and it's worth having a second look. Mind you the odds have to be there as well as a running style that suits that particular race.

Thxs Hoof...

don't be disappointed...maybe Ted can leave older versions on RDSS :D

mike