Getting started
 

Welcome to the Sartin Methodology

This area is going to be for new members and anyone with questions that deal with getting started or questions that either I or other members of the Pace and Cap family will be glad to help answer. Please do not worry about being shy or afraid that you will be thought any less of and NOBODY ever will be treated rudely

Welcome to the Sartin Methodology

Bill

I ask for help from everyone
 

Please Post things here that you feel are helpful to new members
I asked that you think back to when you were first starting out
There must have been something that got you to feel like
Hey now I get it. Maybe it was something you read or maybe
you heard it from Howard, Jimmy The hat or another teaching member

Bill

Software?
 

Hi Bill,
Where can a beginner like me find a basic program (manual entry) for a low cost? I feel that using a paper form and a program that makes me concentrate would be better learner resources than an advanced program with a million bells and whistles.
By the way, do you ever make it so far as Delaware Park?
Thanks,
JD

Valm or Energy
 

Hello JD

Welcome to Pace and Cap I have a copy of Valm - The hand entry version of the original Validator I have a bunch of old programs that I look at
now and then just to sharpen my focus These programs are around

There are programs like your looking for. I can not sell or give you
any more information on this subject I hope you understand

as you see I have approved your post

I have never been to Delaware Park I would love to take a trip
soon If I can I will let you know when.

GS
Bill

help please.

Can I go to Kinko's or somewhere like it , and have this yellow manual, the Dynamics of Energy and the POW , and the follow ups 70 -88 too, and any idea of how to do this, but can i do it on there computer?

Estimate of cost for this act?

This reading must take time, as I have little for reading,but will make some, and I guess I will make time if I want to learn, right, right.

Screenshot stuff looks like a great thing, will look at it too.

Unless someone has better idea, maybe what Barb suggested to read with on the computer,except that my computer is broke in half and barely works, how do I take and post a picture here to show how fragile it is.

Thanks

Patrick

On line
 

Yes Patrick

You can read the manuals from any computer with internet access
The manuals are in the Pace and Cap database so If you can
see Pace and Cap you can read from the Pace and cap library

I stop at public librarys and read online I have even stopped at K Marts
they offer free internet acesss

Bill

Manual Entry vs Downloading
 

Many of the older Sartin programs are strictly manual entry. This wasn't so bad years ago as many of us unless we lived in Las Vegas could only play 1 track anyhow with the exception of a big race simulcast.

With the event of Multi-Track simulcasting this has all changed. I at times like to use the manual entry programs in big races or to sharpen my awareness skills. I think the problem with manual entry is that you may eventually suffer from "Burnout" especially when doing multiple tracks. Also this leaves you less time for readout analysis which is Very important if you are to have success with the Sartin programs.

With Validator; Spec160; and RDSS you will save much time when doing multiple tracks and you can "Cherry Pick" your races. Do not try to do everything at once and stay with the types of races and tracks you are most comfortable with. The nice think about the TM downloads is that they are pay as you go which is great for the "Weekend Warrior". You are not locked into a monthly subscription. The only advantage in having monthly unlimited downloads is if Ted incorporates modeling capabilities into RDSS.

I hope this helps the new members when considering the pros and cons of manual entry vs downloads. Welcome Aboard!

putting experience to use in new setting...
 

As a new member, and thus someone who has never used RDSS (or any of the other Sartin programs), I have kind of a comment and a question....something to say which hopefully will help someone, and simultaneously help me learn something about the program.

As someone who HAS at least read some of the books written by former PIRCO members, and can definitely say my understanding of and ablility to utilize pace was strengthened as a result, I can really appreciate the importance of keeping the other handicapping factors looked at to a manageable, even minimal, amount.

...Which brings me to the main point of my post: To achieve the maximized efficiency of the methodology, I've "heard" it talked about, especially on this board, that a certain amount of unlearning is usually necessary to pare factors down to this minimal amount.

I was wondering how transferable one's pattern recognition skills concerning the form cycle are to RDSS, (IF they have been used successfully, otherwise I wouldn't think you should have TOO tough of a time convincing someone to change.)...say if one was used to using the Form, AND given an already simplified style mainly focused on competitive speed figure range, pace analysis, and the form cycle (and by "form" I mean basically projection of improvement or decline based upon 1: performance/exertion and recovery race-to-race, 2:[I]apparent[I]form cycles caused by pace, and 3: the basic distance/ surface preferences of the horse. And I already don't pay much attention to jockeys, or trips or trainers.

And to narrow my point hopefully a little further...we obviously need some way of choosing..I won't say a particular "paceline" to evaluate a horse, but since we are ultimately choosing to bet one horse(s) rather than another, but not just relying on who has, say, the biggest 2nd call number last race, have the experienced members noticed that their pace and form analysis transfered well to using RDSS, or did they find that the software offered them a "look into" the race that got them to change substantially what they were already doing? Especially if they were already successful?

I know this may seem like a lot to say, and then to lead up to maybe a silly question, but I don't want to take anything for granted, and would like to learn from the actual experience of those successful with the method.

Thanks guys!

Hi Mike and welcome.
After reading your post and questions it is obvious you bring quite a bit to the table as far as "capping ability."

RDSS has as it's "starting point" YOU the individual user/applier of what is in front of you on the screen. Put your line or lines in gleaned from years of "doing your thing" as they say then look at the results.

Simplest advice I can give you the result of which will answer all your questions is put your hands on it and then grab the demo database. Costs absolutely nothing upfront and you have a weeks worth of tracks to practice and see what shakes out. Take as much time with the program and demo database as you like. You don't have to make any moves til you are ready to play live.

If it turns out you like what you see there you go.

If you think it sucked or wasn't for you walk away from the experience having invested only your time and hopefully a feeling that the folks here seemed sincere and respectful to you.

Regardless of what happens the result to ME is very good karma and we all win Mike.

Again welcome :)

Richie,
Thanks for the helpful bottom-line explanation. It confirmed my impression that RDSS is a program that allows for flexibilty of approach.

From what I can gather from reading some of the postings on this board, The Matchup concept seems like one of the most comprehensive and insightful approaches to pace I've seen, and I'm looking to take my pace analysis to the next level..also I'm VERY comfortable with "intuitive" approaches...so if you guys have that in your library, I would certainly like to read it.

Thanks

hi my name is john IAM USING RDSS FOR A TRAIL BIAS IPLAN TOLOOK AT ALL VIDEOS REGAURDING RDSS ON PACE AND CAP AND DO READING FROM LIBRARY ALSO PLAN TO HANDICAPP SOME RACES THIS WEEKEND NOWAGERS SINCE IAM SO NEW DOES ANYBODY HAVE SUGGESTIONS THAT MIGHT HELP LEARNING CURVE THANKS JOHN

Hi John, and welcome!

If you're studying RDSS, the videos are a good source to start. For more general background on various Methodology concepts, and especially those newer ones since the day of Brohamer's Modern Pace Handicapping and Pace Makes the Race (which I think you've read), please download and read the Follow Ups in the Library, from Issues 70 through 88. Ideas on money management, exotics, how factors relate to each other, some good articles on the Psychology of Winning (what got Doc started on the whole odyssey of racing!)

Questions: just post them in the relevant Forums. Can't emphacize enough doing your own study - then asking questions.

All the best!

Ted

Just read "Pace makes the Race" for the first time.
 

I am wondering if the "Comparative Class Chart" in the book is still valid after 18 years? I noticed some tracks are no longer running and that some new one s have opened since 1991. Is there a new list available somewhere that shows what level each track is?

Thanks for any advice.

About five years ago, I tinkered around with the "Comparative Class Chart" by working with this:

http://www.drf.com/misc/pursevalueindex.pdf

I would slot new tracks into the Sartin list by looking for existing tracks at an equivalent purse level. I even revised a few of the Sartin rankings, reducing the number of grades. I'd supply the spreadsheet that I made, but it was on an old PC that went bad.

It was an efficient approximation, but as I play the NYC area tracks, I don't have to worry about shippers from minor ovals too often - except perhaps for the Saratoga season.

Thanks clore1030
 

Thanks for the advise clore1030. As I get more involved in writing my VB macros to use with with my Excel spreadsheets that I am creating to try and lessen the burden of doing it all by hand, I am finding the adjustment part (track to track, sprint to route and back again and turf to dirt, dirt to turf etc..) to be far more complicated than I first thought. I am now questioning myself with, are all these adjustments worth the effort considering the mistakes that I may make and how the mistakes can distort the ratings.

Maybe I will just try the class level adjustments and possibly the "best times" difference between tracks and leave it at that.

Regards,
JFS:confused:

Well then, let me make another suggestion. Have you tried the RDSS program? Calculated EPR and TPR figs are just a small part of the program, but I use them constantly.

One of my favorite plays is in sprints where a horse has a 2-point EPR advantage over the rest of the field and is going off at 5/2 or better.

It also works in routes
 

It also works in Routes if it corresponds with your track/win profile.
And would also work underwater vs. seahorses with a big enough advantage.:D

Attachment 17386

Matchup!
 

Richie,
I have a "Match Up" book in very good condition that I would lend to a member in the group that might benefit from reading it. I could bring it to Saratoga for the group get-together or send it to someone you would recommend whose handicapping would be enhanced by reading it.
Maxspa

Morning Max
I apologize cause I am just seeing this now. That would be terrific and I am pretty sure "Mikesal" hasn't seen Hat's book and he is gonna be up at the Spa!

You are a class act Max and I wish you the very best :)

thxs Rich...is it book 2?

mike

Comparative Class Chart
 

This is what I have come up for track class. It is an Excel Spreadsheet.

Thanks, Houndog!

Ditto

using Bris pace figures as epr and ffr?
 

HI BILL
Its barryt
Ive been threatening to get back into regular horseplaying for a year now, but havent made it yet.
ive had some starts and stops and re read the Matchup and Pace makes the Race. Im not doing enough racing to justify the cost of RDSS and the Trackmatser.PPs , but I hate doing EPRs and FFRs.
One can get alot of BRIS pps free. whole cards for major tracks, so Im wondering....
Can i use the Bris 2c pace ratings as a substitute for[ adjusted) EPRs and their LP [.late pace] ratings for FFRs? Only problem i see is they dont publish their pace ratings in their charts, so track profile will still require making EPR and FFR. This is straight forward as adjustments are not really neccessary. Since my main usage of track profile has always been %early rather than absolute #s , I can apply the same ratio to the Bris figures?.
i dont want to start down the wrong paht here , so does any one have experience with Bris #s and could guide me.
tx in anticipation
barryt

Maybe Im just lucky or its serendipity or maybe it's Sartin.
Yesterday I read " decision Making" in Pace makes the Race, wherein Micheal pizzolla, describes a situation where no one can beat his top EPR horse except a first time starter. LO and behold the first starter wins and Mikes horse finishes 2 nd for a nice exa.
Well fast forward to Oct 16 KEE R7
Rightly or wrongly I had identified # 4 as the prime contender with a Bris TPR of 192( par is 179). It was a new top and it could be MS , but I couldn't settle on a 2nd horse. Wait a minute, there's , not a FTS,but a EURO FTs in Na, #8 and its trained by G Motion. Obviously this horse wins , but I don't get the EXA... BUt... Wait for it.. Motions horse paid 16-1.
If I hadn't read Pace makes the race yesterday, I wouldn't have collected on tht horse.